Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 3245
Location: In front of my computer
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: Vigilante Border Shooting??
This is pretty messed up if it is indeed a group of soldier of fortune vigilante types. (Of course it could be anything, but it sure seems like Vigilantes) We've all discussed the immigration issue at length before. I am sure that no matter where you stand on the issue, you would agree this is just wrong, and NOT what we need here in Arizona.
Quote:
Attack on immigrants kills man near Eloy
4 shooters open fire on group of migrants
Sarah Muench
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 2, 2007 12:00 AM
Authorities are searching for four men who attacked 12 undocumented immigrants, killed an Eloy man and shot a Mexican man, Pinal County Sheriff's Office officials said.
Authorities said the man who was killed was driving a pickup truck containing 12 undocumented immigrants late Saturday in an Eloy farm field when four heavily armed men in a white van began firing on them.
All four men were wearing military-style berets, camouflage pants and shirts, authorities said.
"As far as being a group, we don't know that yet," said Pinal County Sheriff's Office Detective Buddy Johnson, who is investigating the case. "Is there any group of people we are looking at? No. Anybody can dress in anything and they can do this."
Detectives aren't sure of a motive but said the attackers could have been vigilantes, rival smugglers or criminals trying to steal drugs, although no drugs were found in the truck, Johnson said.
"Anything's possible. We are taking all the information we can," Johnson said.
David Norris Jr., 46, of Eloy, was fatally shot and Andres de Jesus, 19, of Oaxaca, Mexico, was shot in the leg during the attack, authorities said.
Alejandro Ramos, a spokesman with the Mexican Consulate in Tucson, quoting the immigrants' reports, said, "They told them to get down to the floor and then they shot and everyone started running.
"They didn't take anything. It's pretty strange."
De Jesus was released Thursday from a Tucson hospital and taken to a hospital in Nogales, Sonora, Ramos said. During the attack, he had been separated from his wife, who Ramos said was found Thursday and will be reunited with her husband.
Johnson said that, due to the large amount of blood found in the back of the pickup, there may be a third victim who has not been located.
The four gunmen were wearing military-style berets, one red and three black, and green camouflage pants and shirts, authorities said.
Three of the gunmen are described as White and one as a Hispanic who spoke limited Spanish, authorities said.
Most of the undocumented victims fled from the scene, but authorities were able to talk to five witnesses, who helped produce a sketch of one of the attackers, Johnson said.
Johnson said the Sheriff's Office is working with Immigration and Customs Enforcement to hunt the attackers.
Anyone with information on the attack is asked to call the Pinal County Sheriff's Office Homicide Division at 1-800-358-4636 or 1-(520)-866-5105.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1877
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:24 am Post subject:
If, indeed, it was vigilantes, it is most definitely NOT a positive development. I note, however, from the report:
Quote:
Detectives aren't sure of a motive but said the attackers could have been vigilantes, rival smugglers or criminals trying to steal drugs, although no drugs were found in the truck, Johnson said.
There is no doubt whatsoever that security along our borders needs to be improved. Armed private citizens are NOT the answer.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:36 am Post subject:
Three of the gunmen are described as White and one as a Hispanic who spoke limited Spanish, authorities said.
That could discount the vigilante angle. I'd feel a little better if it was drug related or rival coyotes rather than idiots taking target practice at illegal immigrants.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 279
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject:
TAP wrote:
Three of the gunmen are described as White and one as a Hispanic who spoke limited Spanish, authorities said.
That could discount the vigilante angle. I'd feel a little better if it was drug related or rival coyotes rather than idiots taking target practice at illegal immigrants.
I wouldn't bet on that. Many of the most vehement anti-immigrant people I know are Hispanics who came here legally.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1877
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject:
Not sure why, but, at the moment, the ability to post images appears to be non-functional.
my2cents, making use of the stupendous powers given to the moderators, I took the liberty of making your reference into a link (which is functional) as opposed to the non-functional image reference. Hope you don't mind... As soon as the problem is resolved, I'll cahnge it back to an image...
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Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 2404
Location: Gold Canyon
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject:
EvilJuan wrote:
Not sure why, but, at the moment, the ability to post images appears to be non-functional.
my2cents, making use of the stupendous powers given to the moderators, I took the liberty of making your reference into a link (which is functional) as opposed to the non-functional image reference. Hope you don't mind... As soon as the problem is resolved, I'll cahnge it back to an image...
There's something funky about this photo. My best guess is the site that my2cents linked has some sort of img linking prohibition built in. I saved it to disk, shrunk it from a massive 800x578 to approximately 250x180 and uploaded it to photobucket and it's now working with img in his post but it's still displaying far too large.
Gunmen kill 3 illegal immigrants, take several others captive
Items compiled from Tribune news services
Published February 9, 2007
TUCSON, ARIZONA -- Gunmen stopped a pickup truck full of illegal immigrants, shot some and took the rest captive Thursday in an attack that left at least three people dead and two wounded, authorities said.
Officials have not determined who the gunmen were but believe at least two of the immigrants were Guatemalan. They believe that the driver, who was probably a smuggler, escaped along with a guide.
The men are thought to have shot five people, three fatally, along a known smuggling corridor near Tucson, and forced several others in the group of nine or 10 immigrants to leave with them, Pima County sheriff's officials said. The victims are believed to be two men and a 15-year-old girl.
Another 15-year-old girl was later found with slight injuries.
The attack occurred on a dirt road near the Silverbell Mine, about 20 miles northwest of Tucson.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 2404
Location: Gold Canyon
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:17 am Post subject:
David B wrote:
More of the same?
Gunmen kill 3 illegal immigrants, take several others captive
Items compiled from Tribune news services
Published February 9, 2007
TUCSON, ARIZONA -- Gunmen stopped a pickup truck full of illegal immigrants, shot some and took the rest captive Thursday in an attack that left at least three people dead and two wounded, authorities said.
Officials have not determined who the gunmen were but believe at least two of the immigrants were Guatemalan. They believe that the driver, who was probably a smuggler, escaped along with a guide.
The men are thought to have shot five people, three fatally, along a known smuggling corridor near Tucson, and forced several others in the group of nine or 10 immigrants to leave with them, Pima County sheriff's officials said. The victims are believed to be two men and a 15-year-old girl.
Another 15-year-old girl was later found with slight injuries.
The attack occurred on a dirt road near the Silverbell Mine, about 20 miles northwest of Tucson.
For those that are interested:
"The Devil's Highway" by Luis Urrea is a journalistic account of one smuggling incident gone awry, but it sheds a lot of light on the coyote culture. After reading that book, none of this stuff surprises me...
Disclaimer: if you are going to read it beware it contains very graphic depictions of death by dehydration
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Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 2404
Location: Gold Canyon
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject:
Jacques Billeaud of the Associated Press tonight wrote:
In the last two weeks, federal authorities have investigated four cases of what appear to have been immigrant smugglers trying to hold up rival human traffickers so they can kidnap their customers and hold them for ransom.
While it's not yet known whether Arizona is seeing an increase in such rip-offs overall, the recent rash of cases does underscore the rising violence in the illegal trade and illustrates the dangerous shortcut that smugglers take to try to make quick cash in the United States.
The latest example of a suspected smuggler rip-off came last week in Pima County, where local authorities believe armed smugglers may have tried to steal illegal immigrants from rival traffickers north of Tucson. Three people were killed in the incident.
Arizona, the busiest illegal entry point on the U.S.-Mexico border, leads all other southern border states in smuggler-on-smuggler rip-offs. Over the last four years, a smaller number of cases also have surfaced in Houston, officials said.
In this scheme, armed smugglers will usually pull over a rival's smuggling vehicle, forcibly take the illegal immigrants inside, bring them to a stash house and pressure friends and relatives of border-crossers to scrape together enough money for the ransom.
With ransoms typically ranging from $1,200 to $2,500 per person, a vehicle packed with 20 or so immigrants can prove lucrative for smugglers.
Officials say smugglers are drawn to the scheme because they don't have to pay employees to recruit would-be border-crossers in Mexico and guides to lead immigrants through the Arizona desert.
"They lose a lot of overhead costs," said Angel Rascon, who supervises smuggling investigations in Arizona for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "The entire fees that are collected by the rip-off crews are for their own gain."
Smugglers have stolen clients from rivals just feet away from the Arizona-Mexico border. The rip-offs also are taking place in smuggling stash houses in metropolitan Phoenix, a hub for transporting illegal immigrants to jobs across the country.
In 2003, a rip-off prompted smugglers to track down their rivals on Interstate 10 near Casa Grande and open fire on two moving vehicles that were carrying their customers. Four people were killed, and five were injured. The shooting also caused a three-vehicle wreck that injured three people not connected to either smuggling group.
The rip-off trend began to emerge in the late 1990s and has since remained fairly steady.
Immigration agents in Arizona worked more than 60 smuggler rip-off cases from April 2005 to July 2006. Since then, only five have been reported, including the four in the last two weeks, officials said.
Rascon said it's too early in the peak immigrant smuggling season, which usually begins around mid-January and typically ends in May, to determine whether rip-offs are increasing in Arizona.
Authorities also said it's likely that some rip-offs go unreported.
Lt. Anthony Vasquez, who is in charge of the Phoenix Police Department's robbery unit, said smugglers believe the fear of deportation keeps immigrants from reporting the kidnappings.
"For the most part, these are victims that are not going to be coming forward to try to prosecute them - and (the smugglers) know that," Vasquez said.
Immigrants who are waiting for their ransom to be paid can face a litany of abuses, such as sexual assaults, beatings and murders. Rip-off crews also usually don't honor the down-payments that immigrants might have made on their smuggling fees.
After ransoms have been paid, some smugglers will help the immigrants get to their final destination.
"In other cases, they collect the funds and they literally kick them to the curb in Phoenix," Rascon said.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 189
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:22 am Post subject:
shoewizard wrote:
How long before they just plop the National Guard along the border to police the damn thing?
I thought they did that...albeit apparently with strict orders to run away if approached by Hispanic men with guns. Because there's a bit of a problem: the Posse Comitatus Act generally prohibits military personnel or the National Guard from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States. It'd need Congress to pass a law in order to use them at the federal level.
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Jim McLennan
AZ SnakePit
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 3245
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:47 am Post subject:
Excellent point. So then the question is how long before the laws are changed? And what would be the consequences to our freedoms and way of life if that can of worms is opened?
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1749
Location: Researching my theory that a lime hat is more effective than tinfoil
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:09 am Post subject:
shoewizard wrote:
Excellent point. So then the question is how long before the laws are changed? And what would be the consequences to our freedoms and way of life if that can of worms is opened?
ah...the times we live in.
That is the much more important question. I wasn't sure if that applied to the Guard as well as the Army. Its funny that the talk radio guys never bring that up...
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1877
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:19 am Post subject:
Experience teaches us that governmental actions are like opening Pandora's Box; once power is granted to the government, it remains in effect -- it is never rescinded.
If/when Congress is persuaded to allow the military to be used in a law enforcement capacity -- even if only for border enforcement at first -- that power will gradually be expanded.
In the Soviet Union, the only way you could tell the difference between the traffic cops, the border guards, the "regular military" and the KGB when they were all in their uniforms was by the color tabs on their shoulders, and the ribbon on their hat. Apart from that, the uniforms were all the same.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Remark attributed to Benjamin Franklin
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: Border Patrol
EvilJuan wrote:
Not sure why, but, at the moment, the ability to post images appears to be non-functional.
my2cents, making use of the stupendous powers given to the moderators, I took the liberty of making your reference into a link (which is functional) as opposed to the non-functional image reference. Hope you don't mind... As soon as the problem is resolved, I'll cahnge it back to an image...
Thanks for fixing that. I thought I had done it correctly. but must have messed it up. Maybe I need some training in posting an image. Also, I was going to post an image in my profile, but kept getting a message that the image was too large. Anyway, thanks again.
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Posts: 1877
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Border Patrol
my2cents wrote:
I was going to post an image in my profile, but kept getting a message that the image was too large. Anyway, thanks again.
Always glad to help -- as is TAP, who actually repaired the image before I was able to do so.
In order to create an avatar (the image you use with your name -- set up as part of your profile), you need to be able to manipulate the image size, either with a program resident on your computer (such as Graphics Workshop), or by running it through one of the on-line sites, such as those mentioned above for hosting the pictures you then post here. ImageShack has an option to create avatar-size images. IIRC, the image size for an avatar here is on the order of 80 pixels x 60 pixels...
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As soon as the problem is resolved, I'll cahnge it back to an image...
