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EvilJuan
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 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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I think we should keep Tracy around for at least another year, and see who shows up: Tracy v.2005.02 or Tracy v.2006...
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levski
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtygary wrote: |
| The only reason to trade Tracy is if we've lost confidence in his abilities to play D and hit lefties. And if that's the case, other teams will smell it and not give us anything. Our best bet is to give him another year to hopefully up his production at the plate and trim a couple errors off the season total. |
team can smell loss of confidence? that's interesting. locker room stink?
plus, the pirates would want him to play 1b, not 3b.
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Last season it seemed to me that many of Tracy's poor throws we high and right. I read that he had a bum left knee most of the year and that would make sense. He was in pain while planting to throw and was maybe avoiding that pain so the throws were high and right.
His bum knee probably accounted for his poor offensive efforts as well as he had a weak foundation to swing from. I think he's going to do much better in '07 ( assuming his knee is healthy ). |
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| levski wrote: |
| plus, the pirates would want him to play 1b, not 3b. |
He'd look pretty good at 1b in Sedona Red too.
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levski
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
| levski wrote: |
| plus, the pirates would want him to play 1b, not 3b. |
He'd look pretty good at 1b in Sedona Red too.
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Right. Conor Jackson would make one hell of a bench player.
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shoewizard
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Joined: 10 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
| levski wrote: |
| plus, the pirates would want him to play 1b, not 3b. |
He'd look pretty good at 1b in Sedona Red too.
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No matter how hard you try FP, you are not getting rid of CJ.
By the end of the year he was giving league average defense and better than league average offense, and it was only his rookie year. You are gonna be sucking up alot of Crow on CJ as the years go by. An I'll be reminding you of your hardline anti- CJ stance every step of the way. 
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kris
September Call-Up
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an article
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07012/753238-63.stm
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The Pirates finally are turning seriously toward options other than Atlanta's Adam LaRoche for their coveted left-handed power bat, two sources said yesterday.
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Does that mean, Tracy to Buccos is in the pipeline?
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The Pirates and Arizona are believed to have discussed a deal that would send out Gonzalez for third baseman Chad Tracy, but the Diamondbacks want more. Tracy, 26, has hit 47 home runs the past two seasons and could move to first base or the outfield.
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levski
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Also, from the Pitt papers:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07012/753238-63.stm
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| The Pirates and Arizona are believed to have discussed a deal that would send out Gonzalez for third baseman Chad Tracy, but the Diamondbacks want more. Tracy, 26, has hit 47 home runs the past two seasons and could move to first base or the outfield. |
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| levski wrote: |
| foulpole wrote: |
| levski wrote: |
| plus, the pirates would want him to play 1b, not 3b. |
He'd look pretty good at 1b in Sedona Red too.
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Right. Conor Jackson would make one hell of a bench player.
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I was just trying to say that Tracy is light years ahead of CJ at 1b on D and CJ could be a good trade chip if we wanted to bring in another 3b.
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="shoewizard"]
| foulpole wrote: |
No matter how hard you try FP, you are not getting rid of CJ.
By the end of the year he was giving league average defense and better than league average offense, and it was only his rookie year. You are gonna be sucking up alot of Crow on CJ as the years go by. An I'll be reminding you of your hardline anti- CJ stance every step of the way. |
If he's wearing Sedona Red then I hope that I will have a crow buffet awaiting me.
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levski
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
I was just trying to say that Tracy is light years ahead of CJ at 1b on D and CJ could be a good trade chip if we wanted to bring in another 3b. |
Is this supposed to be funny or just the tip of an iceberg of stupidity?
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McCray
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Location: clawing my eyes out, praying for sleep. booyah.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
| I was just trying to say that Tracy is light years ahead of CJ at 1b on D and CJ could be a good trade chip if we wanted to bring in another 3b. |
i wouldn't want to do that. jackson has a higher offensive ceiling, and is 1b really the spot we should be freaking out about defense? 1b is right where you should put the guy who can't play d. and i also don't really see jackson as that subpar defensively -- like shoe said, he's really improved quite a bit in a very short time.
so yeah, i don't pull the trigger on trading jackson unless it's to get a VERY nice starting pitching prospect or something.
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shoewizard
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
| levski wrote: |
| foulpole wrote: |
| levski wrote: |
| plus, the pirates would want him to play 1b, not 3b. |
He'd look pretty good at 1b in Sedona Red too.
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Right. Conor Jackson would make one hell of a bench player.
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I was just trying to say that Tracy is light years ahead of CJ at 1b on D and CJ could be a good trade chip if we wanted to bring in another 3b.
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A.) Tracy is NOT light years ahead of CJ on Defense at first
B) I keep telling you that you are overating the importance of defense at first. But you are not hearing.
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| levski wrote: |
| Is this supposed to be funny or just the tip of an iceberg of stupidity? |
It must be the latter. My scouting report is that he lacks instincts, can't turn a 3-6-3/3-6-1 double play to save his ass, can't stretch for the close plays at 1st, runs the bases like a bush leaguer, is slow as molasses, is a right handed bat, looks at way to many 1st pitch meatballs, lacks power to the opposite field and will never be a 35 HR guy.
If he's stays with the club I hope that I'm wrong.
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shoewizard
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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What all that really boiled down to is you want your first baseman to hit 35 homeruns or he is not a "real" first baseman. Admit it...it's all about the homerun. You will fit right in with Boob Melvin who is already pressuring CJ to "hit with more power" instead of letting him develop naturally.
Quick quiz for ya FP.....since hitting 35 homers seems to be your standard of success...how many first baseman in all the majors hit 35 homers last year?
How many did it in 2005?
Answers: 6 did it in 2006, and 5 did it in 2005. |
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levski
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| shoewizard wrote: |
| What all that really boiled down to is you want your first baseman to hit 35 homeruns or he is not a "real" first baseman. |
chicks dig the long ball
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| shoewizard wrote: |
| What all that really boiled down to is you want your first baseman to hit 35 homeruns or he is not a "real" first baseman. Admit it...it's all about the homerun. |
To me it's not all about the HR. It's the whole package. Grace was a doubles/RBI machine and a gold glover so you can give up some HRs under a situation like that. If a 1b is a big power bat then I can accept poor D. But IMO, at 1b, you gotta have more than league average and CJ's D, while it did improve, went from a 0 to a 2 ( from 1 to 10 scale ) last year. I also like to see a left handed bat at 1b.
If he's wearing the Sedona Red then I want to see him do well but I'm not as sold on him as you, lev and mac are.
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levski
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
I also like to see a left handed bat at 1b.
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and why is that?
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TAP
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| foulpole wrote: |
| But IMO, at 1b, you gotta have more than league average and CJ's D, while it did improve, went from a 0 to a 2 ( from 1 to 10 scale ) last year. |
Based on what measurements? The top-12 starting NL 1B's were all in the .990's in FPCT (CJ included). He was in the top-7 in ZR, and the top-4 in RF.
Was the "2" pulled out of the foul hole, or is there another measurement we're missing?
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foulpole
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing that is going to change my opinion of CJ is for me to see him play better.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one gang. |
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shoewizard
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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God FP, sometimes you just make me want to scratch my eyes out after reading some of the bullshit you post.
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CJ's D, while it did improve, went from a 0 to a 2 ( from 1 to 10 scale ) last year. |
What kind of bullshit is this? What does this even mean? What kind of silly subjective scale are we supposed to relate this to?
Try this instead
Yeah....it may be some flawed sabermetric stat.....but I think before I pay attention to your "1-10 scale", I'll put a little more stock in something like this.
Secondly, Jackson was rookie last year. You expected him to be Albert Pujols and are not accepting league average offensive production from a rookie first baseman. In your eyes, that makes him a failure. In my eyes, that makes you myopic. Jackson did exactly what he was supposed to do last year, and he will continue to grow as a major league hitter. His progression is completely normal and regular for a player with his pedigree and history. You just fail to see and understand it. If it were up to you, he would be benched, sent down, traded....you see no value in him, and no upside. You attach no value to the things he does well, and are worried that he is slow afoot, as if most first baseman are fast. I've read you posts for over a year now. Your position could not be more clear. Or more wrong.
Conor Jackson is an excellent hitter and offensive player at an offensive position who is developing exactly as he should be. Thank god the people making decisions are not so short sighted and impatient, or lacking in understanding of what it takes to develop a major league player.
Better load up on Salt and A-1 sauce at Costco in bulk. Cuz you are gonna be eating that crow for YEARS to come....
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dr7joe
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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CJ will become an outstanding offensive player who will also develop into an adequate if not better than average first baseman. He looks to be at least a regular .320 hitter who might surprise us with 25 to 30 hrs on a regular basis. I think he's a taylor made 3 hole hitter and might really explode if he has a couple of good 4 & 5 hitters (perhaps CQ, eventually, and maybe Tracy) behind him. Oh, but isn't this a great time to dream!
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McCray
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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fp, even IF i buy your idea that jackson is an ass-tastic 1bman, you still havent proposed much better. right now, we have tracy at 3rd, jackson at 1st. the defense isn't great, but really, tracy's a bigger problem on d than CJ, IMHO.
but if you want to trade jackson, and move tracy to 1b, then what do we do about 3b? barden? i just don't think he's ready. not yet, not for full time duty. the FA market? who's left? trade for someone like ensberg? does that improve the offense, really? it might improve the d a little, but it costs an assload more money and the improvements on o aren't that impressive.
so what options are there to really really improve upon tracy at 3rd and jackson at 1st? because i just don't see any.
and i'm not 100% sold on jackson. i'm worried about his lack of power. his defense doesn't wow me. he's slow on the bases. but he's dirt cheap, he's controlled for years, and i just don't see a better option inside the organization or outside, do you?
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Dan
September Call-Up
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 81
Location: Mesa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the board Dr7joe.
Pretty high expectations of GQish CJ. |
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Tucson DBacks Fan
MLB Rookie
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Josh "The Peddler" Byrnes: "Let's see what I brought for you in the truck today... Wow do I have a great bargain for you! I brought along a Chad Tracy. He's young, he hits good, he fields, he smiles at teammates and fans, and he has a locked in cheap multiyear contract. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for you. What will you give me for this fine Chad Tracy?" |
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