In the great Gonzalez debate, I'd vote for 'rique over Edgar but that's just my opinion. I like 'rique's stuff more so than Edgar's and feel that he has a higher ceiling.
We'll just agree to disagree. Enrique's ceiling, in my mind, is that of a pretty effective setup reliever. His stuff, while impressive to the untrained eye, isn't much more than a fairly straight (if fairly fast) fastball, and an average slider. He doesn't have a solid third pitch, and he doesn't go deep in games.
Edgar, if his mind is in the game, is the much more effective starter. Trust me. Or not. Your choice. Doesn't affect ME at all.
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:18 am Post subject:
moviegeekjn wrote:
Too many recall Edgar's pre-mature call-up when he was just a baby
So true. If people hadn't seen him thrown to the wolves by Pedrique in 04 they would have an entirely different opinion of him right now. It was a completley different guy out there. He looked very confident out there.
His stuff, while impressive to the untrained eye, isn't much more than a fairly straight (if fairly fast) fastball, and an average slider.
To me he seemed to tire as the season wore on and his pitches did have less movement than they did earlier in the season. If he can build his stamina I think he'll be ok.
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject:
levski wrote:
We'll just agree to disagree. Enrique's ceiling, in my mind, is that of a pretty effective setup reliever. His stuff, while impressive to the untrained eye, isn't much more than a fairly straight (if fairly fast) fastball, and an average slider. He doesn't have a solid third pitch, and he doesn't go deep in games.
Edgar, if his mind is in the game, is the much more effective starter. Trust me. Or not. Your choice. Doesn't affect ME at all.
i think you're underestimating enrique. true, his later starts had a pretty straight hittable fastball. but i remember watching his first couple starts, and he could pound this sinker down and in -- it was just a thing of beauty. sharp late break, a little bit of bite to it. serious change in direction -- it looked like it rolled off a table. but after the first few starts, it started staying up more and more, straighter and straighter.
i like edgar's potential for 2007 a lot more than enrique's potential for 2007, but if i had to pick one for 2009 or 2010, i'd pick enrique. in a heartbeat.
sorry, had to stick up for my enrique fetish.
that said, i also agree that a lot of people are shortchanging edgar. i really like his approach. i don't see any of his pitches as really above average, but he has an ass-load of pitches he can throw for strikes. and he sticks to the basic approach in games -- start with your fastball, work in about 1 new pitch per inning, so as hitters get a better look at the FB, you can still keep them more and more offbalance -- but it works for him.
i've blocked out edgar's 2004 entirely. he's just not the same pitcher out there. but i prefer enrique's stuff -- it just has a nice sink to it.
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Some numbers from baseball cube (since they are numbers if someone wants to check me, please do).
Edgar is 6'2" 213 lbs, born Feb 1983.
Enrique is 5'11" 195 born July 1982
Age (babrely) and body type to Edgar
Edgar has piched 739 minor league innings with 519 k's 166w a 3.13 ratio and 6.31 k/9ip
Enriques has pitched 781 inning for a 634/275 (2.30) and 7.3k/9ip.
Pretty close but I like the difference in ration over the difference in k/ip. Alos Edgar's ip were about 209 below AAA. Enrique's had about 64 ip in AAA, that is 717 of his ip's were below AAA.
I was very impressed with Enrique's mound presence when he came up and it may be that he has "learned to pitch". Still I would have to go with Edgar at this stage as the better bet based on just the numbers, but there is no reason to choose now. Let's see what the spring brings.
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject:
6'1", 220? i've been hearing 6' 250... but is the weight a new addition? because he has a rock solid track record in the minor leagues, and he's still very, very young. if he's always been a big boy, hey, don't fix what ain't broke, you know? if he just ballooned up, let's start telling him russ ortiz spooky stories. that'll scare him off the snacks.
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Hank, you're dead to me.
6'1" 260 was what I had heard. Hence my "(oh would it be so!)" comment. If Eveland was even 6'1" 220 I would be more excited. The problem is that he has put on weight. He is just 23. The Brewers I think were on him about it and he didn't change.
Even though that study we posted a while ago showed fat pitchers last longer, I'm not sure this fat. David Wells, Mickey Lolich who else was a top starter or even a 3 starter with this kind of weight. Maybe more important there is likely not going to be any good growth here. You have a 23 year old at 200 or even 210 and maybe he can put of 10 pounds and add a foot to his fb. Eveland has no place to go, at least in a positive direction.
Unlike Ceasar, I would go with the lean and hungry look in my pitchers.
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject:
stu wrote:
6'1" 260 was what I had heard. Hence my "(oh would it be so!)" comment. If Eveland was even 6'1" 220 I would be more excited. The problem is that he has put on weight. He is just 23. The Brewers I think were on him about it and he didn't change.
Dana and Prince were putting the Brewers' team plane over its weight bearing capacity, so one of them had to go.
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