Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Bruneys Over Broadway
They're gonna put me in the movies
they're gonna make a big star out of me
We'll make a film about a man that's sad and lonely
and all I gotta do is act naturally
Brian Bruney, former Dbacks pheenom, makes to the Big Apple. You know you've got it made when the NY Times has an article about you
Bruney pitched in 77 games for the Diamondbacks in 2004 and 2005, with a 6.17 E.R.A. He had more strikeouts than innings pitched, but nearly as many walks. The Diamondbacks hired a new general manager and a new pitching coach last winter, and Bruney did not make the team in spring training.
In May, he was battling an elbow strain at Class AAA Tucson. The Diamondbacks needed a spot for a veteran pitcher, Kevin Jarvis, and they had to drop someone from their 40-man roster.
Arizona might have the deepest farm system in the majors, loaded with hard-throwing right-handers, and Bruney did not fit in their long-term plans.
“It’s the nature of where our organization is,” General Manager Josh Byrnes said. “Our 41st player is a desirable player. With Bruney, right-handed relief has been an area of strength and inventory. For much of the season, we’ve had no lefties in the bullpen, and our bullpen’s actually been pretty good. But Bruney is obviously a guy who’s had his moments, and it isn’t shocking that he’s doing well.”
At least the Dbacks got $50K for Dan Uggla... Which I'm sure went to pay for Russ Ortiz's tab at 12 Dunkin Donuts locations in the valley...
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.
Btw, the article mentions Gil Patterson. He's arguably one of the best pitching coaches/instructors out there. Al Leiter was talking about him a while back on YES and claimed that Patterson saved his career a while back... and that he helped out a lot of pitchers as well... Must be nice to have a pitching coach like that...
Anyhow, I'm happy for Bruney...
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 3241
Location: In front of my computer
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject:
I just was looking at the old threads at AZ Central about Bruney.
You were very steadfast in your support of Bruney because of his upside and potential, and preached nothing but patience. But you were a little surprised to see BP rank him as just about one of the worst relievers in baseball last year.
Like you said in the other thread...maybe he never had a chance here because he did not have the right coaches. One thing though......he was really stubborn, and difficult to coach. Sometimes something like getting DFA'd can humble a guy enough to just suck it up and do as he's coached without holding back or resisting. Last chances and all that.
Well, Bruney was one of the worst relievers in baseball last year... I just kept thinking that eventually things would click for him and he'd start dominating like his stuff suggested he would. Of the three "defense independent" metrics (k, bb, hr) he had excellent k/ip and hr/ip rates and his walk rate was his major blemish... but young guys with excellent k rates more often than not improve their control as they mature, so I figured there was hope for Bruney...
That being said, when I saw he was released, I assumed that he was really badly hurt and that he was fried. Injuries are a bitch. I was about as shocked as anyone to see him pitch at Fenway for the Yankees a few weeks back...
Anyhow, Uggla and Bruney should teach JByrnes a little bit of humility... and tell him that he needs to spend more time evaluating his "lesser" prospects and creating the enviroment for young pitchers to develop in Arizona...
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.
This is another data point against the farm system.
It seems to me that there are a bunch of questions that need to be asked, and nobody's doing it.
Well, WE are asking.
And THEY read here.
Can't do much else.
Believe me, as much as I enjoy chatting about baseball online, I don't think there's an ounce of utility in it. This has not been a creative organization, and I'm not seeing any evidence of that changing.
How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed? How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential? How about exceeding? How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1871
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject:
shoewizard wrote:
Robert S. wrote:
This is another data point against the farm system.
It seems to me that there are a bunch of questions that need to be asked, and nobody's doing it.
Well, WE are asking.
And THEY read here.
Can't do much else.
I wonder...
What if we could figure out a way to use the knowledge and insight here in a form of lobbying the FO, or even the ownership? They aren't as susceptible to lobbying as are elected officials, but they don't operate in a vacuum, either.
What do you think?
_________________
Is It Next Season Yet?
Hopefully they learn a bit about the rookie poison that is Bomel. And would it be too much to ask for to give Hairston another chance next year before you give away a 30hr hitter for peanuts.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 3241
Location: In front of my computer
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject:
Robert S. wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
Robert S. wrote:
This is another data point against the farm system.
It seems to me that there are a bunch of questions that need to be asked, and nobody's doing it.
Well, WE are asking.
And THEY read here.
Can't do much else.
Believe me, as much as I enjoy chatting about baseball online, I don't think there's an ounce of utility in it. This has not been a creative organization, and I'm not seeing any evidence of that changing.
How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed? How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential? How about exceeding? How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
I don't know how much utility it has. Probably more than an ounce or even two...but most likely not much more than that. It never hurts to share ideas, and once in a while those ideas even get in front of the right people. Information is king. I am sure that once in a while, pieces of information not otherwise thought of or presented get mentioned here, and that never hurts.
As far as your feelings about the organizations ability to develop players, I think I can stand to wait and see on that issue for another year or two.
How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed? How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential? How about exceeding? How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
Robert, are you saying that you don't believe the current management has the ability or desire or whatnot to develop major league players? Or that the current management doesn't know how to draft players or help them realize their potential? You do realize the current GM has been in place for a year?
Or is this a knock on the previous management? And if it is, why do you not just say that?
And anyhow, why don't you actually count the major league players that the Dbacks have developed? You can start with the 1996 draft. You would be surprised that the Dbacks have developed quite a few of them...
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.
How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed? How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential? How about exceeding? How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
Robert, are you saying that you don't believe the current management has the ability or desire or whatnot to develop major league players? Or that the current management doesn't know how to draft players or help them realize their potential? You do realize the current GM has been in place for a year?
Or is this a knock on the previous management? And if it is, why do you not just say that?
And anyhow, why don't you actually count the major league players that the Dbacks have developed? You can start with the 1996 draft. You would be surprised that the Dbacks have developed quite a few of them...
First off: I chose "developed" for a reason: just drafting a guy isn't developing him. Not by a long shot.
What I'm saying (I don't see how you found so much ambiguity in here):
Quote:
How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed? How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential? How about exceeding? How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
Where the implicit question is: How is the new regime working to improve player development? Do we have any evidence that this is happening in a meaningful capacity? They sure as hell haven't leveraged themselves to that end at the major-league level in '06.
Obviously, this stuff extends beyond Byrnes, but does concern him a great deal.
Where the implicit question is: How is the new regime working to improve player development? Do we have any evidence that this is happening in a meaningful capacity? They sure as hell haven't leveraged themselves to that end at the major-league level in '06.
Well, let's see... they taught all prospects over the age of 21 to put their pants on one leg at a time... and hold their breath under water...
I don't think you're actually in a position to judge how meaningful the changes brought by the new GM & co to player development in the minors has been... you just don't have the info, no one has thrown you a bone.
But sure, you can guess... Let me put it the opposite way: What evidence do you have that the new mgmt does NOT try to improve player development?
Oh oh, I know. They let Quentin rot in AAA about 3 months longer than needed. Well, that does it... the new GM stinks.
***
Robert, sometimes you ask good questions, and many times you make good points, but every now and then you just ask a question that you think is extremely relevant... and it might be if you ran a baseball team on Venus or Pluto. You basically admitted as much...
I actually have no complaints with how the Dbacks have handled the roster this year; they've methodically trimmed off fat, moved out old farts, opened up spots for young players, and generally put themselves in a position to field a young, cheap, talented team on the field for years to come.
Of course, this is all an evidence that they suck at player development...
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.
I don't think you're actually in a position to judge how meaningful the changes brought by the new GM & co to player development in the minors has been... you just don't have the info, no one has thrown you a bone.
But sure, you can guess... Let me put it the opposite way: What evidence do you have that the new mgmt does NOT try to improve player development?
Oh oh, I know. They let Quentin rot in AAA about 3 months longer than needed. Well, that does it... the new GM stinks.
***
Robert, sometimes you ask good questions, and many times you make good points, but every now and then you just ask a question that you think is extremely relevant... and it might be if you ran a baseball team on Venus or Pluto. You basically admitted as much...
I actually have no complaints with how the Dbacks have handled the roster this year; they've methodically trimmed off fat, moved out old farts, opened up spots for young players, and generally put themselves in a position to field a young, cheap, talented team on the field for years to come.
Of course, this is all an evidence that they suck at player development...
This is a great bit and all, but really, levski, I said:
Quote:
This is another data point against the farm system.
It seems to me that there are a bunch of questions that need to be asked, and nobody's doing it.
and:
Quote:
How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed? How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential? How about exceeding? How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
and:
Quote:
Where the implicit question is: How is the new regime working to improve player development? Do we have any evidence that this is happening in a meaningful capacity? They sure as hell haven't leveraged themselves to that end at the major-league level in '06.
The re-emergence of Bruney, particularly on the heels of the Uggla donation, is a perfectly reasonable time to wonder why talented players are leaking without return, and just who has Byrnes' ear. This bears more than a passing resemblance to the Garagiola era: Player X doesn't fit our pre-conceived notions of what he should be and/or when he should be it, so we're going to give up on him. Hairston is another. They couldn't have done much more to depress his value this season.
I've stated my suspicion that the farm system is poor at developing players who don't skew towards the skills-side before, and this looks like another example to me. I think my posts reflect that.
You attempted to put a bunch of words in my mouth and threw out a bunch of strawmen. You responded to "Robert S." rather than the words.
You turned this into a boring, pointless meta-exchange.
Again.
You know this farm system. You know the players the team has turned out over the years. You know there's a difference between drafting and development. If everything you see indicates they've got the player-development side optimized, that's one thing; if not . . .
Q. How many credible MLB players have the Diamondbacks developed?
A. I mentioned that this is pretty easy to find out. I think you'd be surprised at the number, it's higher than you might expect.
Q. How many Diamondback draft picks are realizing their potential?
A. This, like MANY of your questions, is so generally and vaguely defined that you could take it to mean whatever you want it to me. What do you mean by "potential"? Making it to the majors? Making it to the all star? Making it to one of Jenna's movies?
Q: How about exceeding?
A. Another vague question. The easiest way to bullet-proof yourself is to answer questions that you could take to mean whatever it is you want them to mean. Define the question, then expect someone to bother to answer it.
Q. How does this compare to other organizations? How much do the Diamondbacks track this sort of thing?
A. Now THESE are great questions. This is what I'd like to know too. But my point is this: you are stating these questions basically implying that the Dbacks don't do any of this. My answer was, you don't have the info to make such a conclusion. The may be tracking this sort of thing. Or not.
Q. How is the new regime working to improve player development?
A. So, here's an exercise. Look at AZ's important (I mean top 15, let's say) players in the AZ system, and see what the Dbacks have done to improve their chances of making it to the majors and having a career.
A few POSITIVE developments I've seen:
1. Signed Upton and IMMEDIATELY moved him to CF. More importantly, didn't rush him but sent him down to low A. To me, the Dbacks showed great judgment with him by starting him off slowly.
2. Didn't rush any top prospect (Drew, Young, Quentin) to the majors. You may think these guys should've been starting out of spring training, but I disagree. I think giving them the 2006 season in AAA was important
3. Didn't rush CGonzalez. See Upton, J.
4. Managed to get a LOT of our pitching prospects to improve: Edgar, Enrique, Owings, Ohlendorf, Jackson, Smith, Chico... I'd say Nippert and Mock were the only two disappointments, but overall the pitching in our system has taken a major step forward.
Now, here's the oppositive quesiton for you. How are the Dbacks NOT working to improve player development?
Q. Do we have any evidence that this is happening in a meaningful capacity?
A. My question for you is: do you have any evidence that it is NOT happening in a meaningful capacity? How about you tell us HOW we should go about answering this questions? Less philosophy, more methodology.
Q. They sure as hell haven't leveraged themselves to that end at the major-league level in '06.
A. O RLY?
Well, they only traded Green to make room for Q, and aren't bringing back Gonzo to open up another spot for Young. And they aren't bringing back Counsell or any other jaded veteran. And they traded away Glaus to make room for Tracy. And they stuck with J full time at 1B (even if you may argue that it was because Clark sucked). And they very obviously are going to trade Estrada to make room for Snyder/Montero. And they brought up Enrique and Edgar instead of sending out fat ass Ortiz on the mount every fifth day.
My question to you is: which prospect have the Dbacks irreversably fked up this?
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 189
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:43 am Post subject:
From the Tribune
Quote:
Minor league pitching coordinator Dennis Lewallyn and minor league outfield coordinator Eric Fox will not return in 2007. No decision has been made on their replacements.
Perhaps an acknowledgement that performance in certain areas has left a little to be desired?
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Jim McLennan
AZ SnakePit
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1555
Location: clawing my eyes out, praying for sleep. booyah.
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:17 am Post subject:
i can see canning the pitching coordinator. nippert's been a trainwreck since
day one and hasn't shown any real improvement in is mechanics. but why the OF coordinator? is that because hairston couldn't be taught?
_________________
Hank, you're dead to me.
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