Pythagoras?" said rookie center fielder Chris Young, when apprised of the verbal potshots. At age 23, Young is not that far removed from 10th-grade algebra. "You mean like the Pythagorean Theorem?"
...
"It just shows," Young said, "you can't put this game into a math equation."
...
"I enjoy proving all the stats guys wrong," said rookie third baseman Mark Reynolds. "It's fun to read about how we should be a last-place team. I guess even Pythagoras can be wrong sometimes."
...
"Baseball is a stats-oriented sport, and I understand that," said first baseman Conor Jackson. "But in the end, it doesn't matter. We find ways to win. We get big hits. We get big outs on the mound. We make big plays."
Added Young: "No matter what anyone else says, we've been playing great baseball. Not every player is having a great season, personally. But as far as a team playing the game the right way, we're doing a great job."
...
"That's what we like to do," Jackson said. "We want to be able to hold up the World Series trophy at the end of the year and say, 'What's up now? Anybody else? Anybody else got something to say?' "
Now, here's the deal, young Dbacks:
I know that plenty of times what you say gets taken out of context by journalists. I know that plenty of times you get misquoted. But:
Will you just shut up and play? More winning and less talking? More spat and less chat? More growling like RJ and less yapping like Schilling?
One, if you don't really understand what the Pythag theorem, as applied to projected baseball win/loss records REALLY means, then either read up to find out more, or just don't say anything.
Saying something stupid just for the sake of saying something stupid is... well, stupid. You are NOT proving any theorems wrong. You are not proving any "stat-heads" or Pythagoras or Bill James or anyone else wrong. The Bill James theorem does NOT exclude a season like the one you're having. It just states that the season you are having is pretty unlikely... but that it HAPPENS.
The 1905 Tigers, the 1984 Mets, the 1987 Twins, for example, have all been in your shoes. They've been there, they've done that. And what you are doing isn't impossible. You haven't landed on Mars, for f-k's sake. You have won 11 games more than expected... that's all... And guess what, the 2005 Dbacks won 11 games more than expected.
Two, you haven't PROVEN ANYTHING. You haven't WON ANYTHING. You haven't won the division, you haven't won the wild card, you haven't even clinched a playoff spot.
The only thing you've proven is that you can collapse at the drop of the hat, go cold in a hurry, and look like the suckiest bunch of sucks who ever sucked... and if you go into sucking over the next five games, you WILL miss the playoffs, and you WILL look like idiots.
So shut up and win a few fucking games first, will you? When you clinch the division, when you win a playoff series, when you win the NL pennant, and when you win the world series, THEN come out and brag. Not now.
Three, Mark and Chris and Conor: you want to prove others wrong? How about you answer the numerous questions about your own abilities to play the game well BEFORE mouthing off?
Like Chris, maybe you can get your OBP over .300? One of these years, please? Those 30 homers are nice, but you have been about as valuable as Juan Pierre this year. Yes, that Juan Pierre.
Or Mark, maybe you can talk less AND strike out less while you're at it? You have sick power, but you look like a damn windmill out there. How about you focus on drawing more walks instead?
Or Conor: You've been better in the second half, but you are a first baseman who cannot hit 15 home runs in a season. That's NOT going to help this team win the world series. And that's definitely NOT going to ease up the front office concerns about your future.
You want to REALLY prove people wrong? Win the f-king division first. Then win the f-king NL pennant. Then do your best in the world series. And then talk...
And don't take this personally, guys. I LOVE this team. I really DO. Even if at times I feel I'd rather have someone extract my gall bladder with a shovel than watch you play, I still remain the biggest fan. But please, do more thinking, less talking and most imporantly, more winning. Period.
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 822
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:24 am Post subject:
Relax. The press is going to stick mics in front of the mouths of the players on a first place team. Are they supposed to all just say, "No comment"? It's not like they did a Heath Bell.
They talk the talk, but they'd better walk the walk over the next five games. That's all. If they fail to make the playoffs, despite being 2 games up with 5 to play, they'll look worse than Heath Bell did.
And mind you, Heath Bell may end up being right after all...
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 8816
Location: In front of my computer
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:34 am Post subject:
They read and hear EVERY day that they are flukes and lucky, etc etc....it's the ONLY thing that is EVER written about them in the National press. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. So when someone asks them about it directly, what do you expect them to say? They are athletes, and much of what they have to do is based on confidence, and belief in themselves. So OF COURSE when asked, they are going to respond like this. They are a bunch of young guys in pennant race under a lot of pressure being told they don't belong.
In the primer thread, Levski wrote:
Quote:
Mark, you went to college, for crying out loud. I assume you can read and think. Do more of that, and less of this inane babbling that you're doing. Better yet, don't think, don't talk, don't do anything else but get a ##### hit once in a while.
Mark Reynolds is a rookie straight from AA who has a 112 OPS+ for the season, and in the heat of the pennant race has hit
August .342/.405/.539
September .324/.412/.581
He can say whatever the fuck he wants, (within reason of course) and one tough game doesn't deny him that right.
And of course you're right, Shoewizard. Reynolds can do and say whatever he wants, and as I wrote in that Primer thread, I agree with you.
Just answer me this: would you be shocked if the Dbacks lose 4 of their next 5 games and MISS the playoffs? I won't be shocked.
Would you be shocked if Reynolds went cold like turkey again over the next 5 games and looked like he belonged in AA again? I won't be.
They CAN say anything they want. But, as I wrote above, if they are going to talk the talk, they better be able to walk the walk. That's all.
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
And mind you, Heath Bell may end up being right after all...
Most of us have had to accept the fact that SD's going to win the NL West, because Heath doesn't just think it's going to happen.... he knows it.
I saw the Washington Post article earlier this morning and let it go as Dave Sheinin baiting a bunch of giddy young players. I still believe they'll wrap up the division this week, but it's not a walk in the park. As Levski said, if they take it for granted this last week and fail to finish it out (walk the walk) that crow will taste like s**t. And yes, they should try to understand what it is they're commenting on before sounding the fool. That usually comes with age and maturity (except in the case of players like Kent).
_________________ Arizona Diamondbacks
- 2007 National League West Champions
- 2007 NLDS Winners
- 2008 World Champions
The Dbacks should let their play and their bats do the talking. It'll be that much sweeter and that much more convincing.
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
Relax. The press is going to stick mics in front of the mouths of the players on a first place team. Are they supposed to all just say, "No comment"? It's not like they did a Heath Bell.
Oden is correct.... Just a natural and expected reaction from the media barrage. It's a story they could have written without the sound bites; in fact, they HAVE been writing this same story over and over and over. They just got our young guys to chime in this time. Not a big deal.
(I'll be glad when this week is over)
_________________ Old School Reviews: Life is too short for bad movies.
Yes, I overreact. It's my nature. Shoewizard is my Daddy, after all...
And as I stated, I know players get baited by journalists, and I know that journalists misquote and mis-characterize player comments ALL the time.
And I know that we cannot expect a bunch of young players on a team that has won 89 games to say "No comment" and "Nothing to say".
And I know that if the Dbacks had won last night, I would have felt a bit differently. Especially if the Padres and Rockies had lost as well.
But this team has turned me into a manic-depressive mess. I love the highs and get sick and miserable and whiny and mad in the lows.
I just can't wait until they clinch the division so I can get my sanity back... before I lose it in the first round of the playoffs...
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
The Dbacks should let their play and their bats do the talking. It'll be that much sweeter and that much more convincing.
And it wouldn't hurt if the manager got his head out of his behind and moved runners along or even (Heaven forbid!) used a squeeze play once in a blue moon........like last night.
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formerly ROF
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 822
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:00 am Post subject:
I'd much rather be 2 games up with 5 to play than be 2 down. I'm still being greedy and want that best overall record in the NL. And who knows, maybe the Rockies will be out of the playoff race by the time the D-backs go to Denver.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 296
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:14 am Post subject:
EvilJuan wrote:
levski wrote:
But this team has turned me into a manic-depressive mess. I love the highs and get sick and miserable and whiny and mad in the lows.
You'd be right at home with the Diamondback fans in our household...
I think it goes with the territory. We've been walking on eggshells because of the belief - both in the national press and in the back of our heads - that this team is just a bunch of massive over-achievers, and are likely to collapse like a house of cards. Hell, one bad inning and I was preparing an obituary:
But, truth is, with five games to go we have a better than 90% chance of making the playoffs. That's freakin' amazing, and I think, however it's been done, the players deserve more credit and praise than criticism. They can say whatever they like in the press, frankly - though certainly, wins tonight and tomorrow would soothe my ulcer tremendously...
_________________
Jim McLennan
AZ SnakePit
Just for the record, I believe the Dbacks TRUE talent and play puts them a lot closer to their actual record than their "projected" pythag record. That is, they are a LOT closer to being the best team in the NL west than they are to being the worst team in the NL west.
They are a talented young team, whose offense is getting better in the second half but is clicking well in September; whose starting pitching has warts in the back of the rotation but is strong enough to keep the team in games; whose bullpen has had chinks and clunks but is fundamentally solid and can dominate more often than not; and whose defense is very good to outstanding, despite occasionally missed shoestring catches. They are talented enough to win the world series, I truly believe that.
Am reminded of a Rush song
He's got to make his own mistakes
And learn to mend the mess he makes
He's old enough to know what's right
But young enough not to choose it
He's strong enough to win the world
But weak enough to lose it ---
And despite all this, I still would've loved a couple of "No comments" from them...
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
But this team has turned me into a manic-depressive mess. I love the highs and get sick and miserable and whiny and mad in the lows.
Sounds like "normal"-obsessive Days like last night make me "hate" baseball for a few hours, to the point of not wanting to watch ESPN highlight recaps.... but today's a new day. New Hope (even with Livo pitching tonight)
_________________ Old School Reviews: Life is too short for bad movies.
I think it goes with the territory. We've been walking on eggshells because of the belief - both in the national press and in the back of our heads - that this team is just a bunch of massive over-achievers, and are likely to collapse like a house of cards. Hell, one bad inning and I was preparing an obituary:
That's the key, really. I don't care what the national press thinks. And I should be rational enough to look at the 90% probability of making the playoffs and be cool about last night's loss...
The doubts that reside in the back of my head, however, are just driving me crazy... and not because I think this team is NOT talented enough to win the division, it's because I know this team is also inconsistent enough to lose the division and the wild card race.
But hey, that's why I'm not a professional baseball player... even if I had the tools to make it, I'd probably Quentin myself out of the game by mid-May. Gotta tell you though, seeing the Rockies charge like mad mo-fos and knowing that THREE teams (SDP, PHI, COL) are biting at our heels does not make me sleep well at night, that's for sure.
Luckily (hopefully?), the Dbacks appear to have stronger nerves than I do...
[EDIT]
P.S. About that 90% probability of making the playoffs...
I want to believe the "stat-heads" who calculate those odds, I really do... but then Mark Reynolds comes out and tells me that the Dbacks LOVE and WANT to prove the "stat-heads" wrong...
What am I supposed to do? Huh?
_________________
Shoewizard is my Daddy
They read and hear EVERY day that they are flukes and lucky, etc etc....it's the ONLY thing that is EVER written about them in the National press. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. So when someone asks them about it directly, what do you expect them to say? They are athletes, and much of what they have to do is based on confidence, and belief in themselves. So OF COURSE when asked, they are going to respond like this. They are a bunch of young guys in pennant race under a lot of pressure being told they don't belong.
In the primer thread, Levski wrote:
Quote:
Mark, you went to college, for crying out loud. I assume you can read and think. Do more of that, and less of this inane babbling that you're doing. Better yet, don't think, don't talk, don't do anything else but get a ##### hit once in a while.
Mark Reynolds is a rookie straight from AA who has a 112 OPS+ for the season, and in the heat of the pennant race has hit
August .342/.405/.539
September .324/.412/.581
He can say whatever the fuck he wants, (within reason of course) and one tough game doesn't deny him that right.
I say screw it. We've done enough to tell everybody to f*%k off. And I'm kinda glad the players said something; they're competitive, young players. It's a testament to the vets and staff that more "I told you so"'s haven't come out.
That said, opening their mouths backed them into a corner; and a team with a 2-game lead heading into the playoffs playing like they're backed into a corner is a very good thing. At this point in the year, whatever instills a little urgency is fine.
Those comments and the repercussions aren't going to be what makes this team collapse down the stretch, anyways.
_________________
We have Bo.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 296
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:50 am Post subject:
levski wrote:
The doubts that reside in the back of my head, however, are just driving me crazy... and not because I think this team is NOT talented enough to win the division, it's because I know this team is also inconsistent enough to lose the division and the wild card race.
Amen to that. I can't honestly say I am finding this pennant race a lot of "fun"...
_________________
Jim McLennan
AZ SnakePit
Last edited by AZ SnakePit on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
The doubts that reside in the back of my head, however, are just driving me crazy... and not because I think this team is NOT talented enough to win the division, it's because I know this team is also inconsistent enough to lose the division and the wild card race.
Amen to that. I can't honestly say I am finding this pennant race a lot of "fun"...
I believe Shoewizard wrote recently that watching this team play is liking having your eye balls gauged out with a slurpy straw...
And I recently commented that watching this team hit (especially with runners in scoring position) is like having your balls cut off with a spoon...
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Shoewizard is my Daddy
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 8816
Location: In front of my computer
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:07 am Post subject:
By the way, I think if ANYONE really wants to be objective here, and goes back and reads the answers the players gave, you will see that they were trying to be measured and balanced.
For example:
CY:
Quote:
"It just shows," Young said, "you can't put this game into a math equation."
If you read that quote in the context in which it was asked, and the part of the article just before that, you can see that Young is simply bemused. It just Shows...., IOW there are exceptions. Nothing wrong with that.
CJ:
Quote:
"Baseball is a stats-oriented sport, and I understand that," said first baseman Conor Jackson. "But in the end, it doesn't matter. We find ways to win. We get big hits. We get big outs on the mound. We make big plays."
So he acknowledges the importance of stats and his understanding. Then follows with a little bit of bravado perhaps...but is there anything WRONG about what Jackson said? Have they found ways to win? Have they gotten big hits? Have they got big outs on the mound? Have they made big plays?
Yes, Yes, Yes & Yes
Quote:
Added Young: "No matter what anyone else says, we've been playing great baseball. Not every player is having a great season, personally. But as far as a team playing the game the right way, we're doing a great job."
What is wrong with Young's statement here????? They've won 88 games...at some point that becomes at least "good' baseball, pythag be damned. He acknowledges that not everyone is having a great season, but points to the collective TEAM results. No trash talking, no false bravado, no baiting of "stat heads and intellectuals.....
MR:
Quote:
"I enjoy proving all the stats guys wrong," said rookie third baseman Mark Reynolds. "It's fun to read about how we should be a last-place team. I guess even Pythagoras can be wrong sometimes."
See, he says SOMETIMES....he doesn't say the concept behind applying pythagorean theories to team won/loss is bullshit, he just says sometimes teams can defy that. If you were him, would you not be bemused by everyone telling you that you should'nt be in last place?
CJ again:
Quote:
"That's what we like to do," Jackson said. "We want to be able to hold up the World Series trophy at the end of the year and say, 'What's up now? Anybody else? Anybody else got something to say?' "
After being told all year I wasn't good enough, I'd WANT to be able to hold up a trophy at the end of the year too, and say ' WHAT UP.
He didn't guarantee anything, he just stated what his desire was....to prove everyone that doubts the team wrong.
Nothing wrong with that in my book.
I just don't understand the harsh and negative reaction to these statements. When I read them the first time, before there were any comments in the Primer article, my first thought was "those were measured comments, they handled that well"
I was stunned to see Mahnken go off on his anti intellectual rant, and even more stunned to see Levski completely take every word they spoke and turn it into something it was not....as if they were trash talking, and baiting the "statistical community".....
They weren't dude. In fact it is just the opposite. They have been baited over and over, and told they are a fluke and lucky and bullshit....more often by me and many here than anywhere else. And when they FINALLY addressed the issue in public, they were well spoken, measured, and well thought out.
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1563
Location: worm factory
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:33 am Post subject:
Holy cow, you guys should be cast as those guys in the All-tel commercial.
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My wife is always trying to get rid of me. The other day she told me to put the garbage out. I said to her I already did. She told me to go and keep an eye on it...and kurkjian is a jinx
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Days like last night make me "hate" baseball for a few hours, to the point of not wanting to watch ESPN highlight recaps.... but today's a new day. New Hope (even with Livo pitching tonight)
