Diamondbacks Bullpen

shoewizard · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: Plate Discipline

I hope these kids show some improvement in this area over the next 10 games. But it may be too soon. Next years adjustment could be tougher than we are expecting if this area does not improve.

levski · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1763

Shoewiz, the Michel Foucault of the Bullpen, unleashes his latest!

Plate Discipline and Punish (the Ball)!

Buy his other books:

Baseball Madness and Civilization
The Birth of the Baseball Clinic (with Mr. Emansky, editor)
The Batting Order of Things

and last, but not least:

The History of Mark Grace's Sexuality
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Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.

And Tony Pena cuts in line...

shoewizard · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject:

LOL.....

Lucky for you that all those March 2005 threads over at AZ Central cannot be found any longer.....you know...the ones where you insisted the 2005 bullpen was going to be better than I thought, and the ones where I told you the bullpen would be historically bad......you remember those, right buddy? Wink

I'm sure the kids are going to be solid major leagers. I'm just pointing out what needs to be improved for them to get there, and saying the adjustment MIGHT be a tad longer than we are hoping or expecting.

You are not watching the games every night. These kids are ALL swinging early in the count, wildy, at stuff out of the zone. It's gonna take a while.

levski · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1763

shoewizard · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject:

Brian Bruney....sheesh....

That one hurts too.

levski · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1763

shoewizard · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject:

You misunderstand.

He sucked, and I was glad to see him go. I just didn't see him getting it together.

It hurts to see him getting it together elsewhere. Thats all.

levski · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1763

One might argue that Bruney never stood a chance of getting it together in AZ. I think the Dbacks are one of the worst organizations in baseball in the ability to develop young pitchers. Or maybe even young players in general.

Maybe things are changing now, as a few guys are having success (Owings, Ohlendorf, Jackson, Smith, etc), and so did Edgar and Enrique this year... but you would think someone ought to be able to fix Nippert, for example...

I'd argue that instituting a program for training young pitchers how to pitch might be one of Josh Byrnes's most critical tasks on his "to do" list...
_________________
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Joe Girardi is ten feet tall,
Old school Hollywood baseball,
Me and Frenchy walk a ton.

And Tony Pena cuts in line...

shoewizard · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject:

Excellent point. It is glaring that the Yankees were able to get him turned around. Of course one guy does not a case make...but there seems to be alot of evidence of the failures in this area.

stu · Everyday Player Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 560

[i]I hope these kids show some improvement in this area over the next 10 games. But it may be too soon. Next years adjustment could be tougher than we are expecting if this area does not improve. ]

Young player's strike out. Here are some random names with first signifigant year of playing time for the following players:

Wright 13w 40k
Beltran 46/123
Garciapara 35/92
Bay 41/129
Jeter 48/102

Other than Drew, I would not be concerned about these numbers.

Dangerfield · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Plate Discipline

dirtygary · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:45 am Post subject:

Yeah, the kids are up there hacking. I think it's a symptom of first being in the show. They'll calm down when they see that avg around .250. Q and Young could have real problems in the K/BB rates, but I think Drew and CJ will show drastic improvement. Especially Drew - he seems to be the only that knows you take something low and outside the other way.

Next year could be worse than '05, almost as bad as '04. Relying on too many young players that aren't consistent. Drew and CJ are almost there, but Q and Young ahve a little more improvement to show before we start talking about division titles.
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The pen is mightier than the sword, if that pen is shot out of a gun

McCray · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:51 am Post subject:

i'd bet the first month or two are going to be worse than the worst points of 04. but after that, i think it'll be a pretty good team, all in all. at least a lot of fun to watch.
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Hank, you're dead to me.

moviegeekjn · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:55 am Post subject:

Hard to imagine it being worse than the worst of '04.... Many of those games were downright unwatchable.

Using the A's as the standard, you CAN expect a comparatively weak first half and a significantly improved second half with an enthusiatic run at the playoffs in August and September. More exciting baseball than the past couple of limping finishes.

stu · Everyday Player Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 560

That 2004 team was an awful team. I doubt it would have been 500 in AAA.

One of the problems in the past with the Dbacks was they seemed to want their team set at the start of the season. I think a team should develop during the season. This is not an original thought. As usual, this was Earl's philosophy.

For example, Patterson was traded becasue they couldn't find a spot for him and had to have a loogy to start the season. I'd rather go into next with a "flawed" roster that has Hairston and both Gonzalez' on it than try to creat a well balance roster at the start of the season.

We had a coach that used to say he would let the players decide who was going to play. The Dbacks should do that. Between Byrnes, Hairston, Devanon, Young and Quentin plus I'd like to see low FA signing of the John Gall or Restovich type, the Dbacks should be able to find 3 good outfielders.

They may not know who they are at the start of the season so they should keep them all and make do without another pitcher or futility infielder.

moviegeekjn · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:10 am Post subject:

stu · Everyday Player Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 560

Someone (Rich Rifkin?; Jaffe?) has a web site called the Futility Infielder. I stole it.

shoewizard · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

The purpose of starting this thread has been achieved.

Temper expectations for 2007. Steel yourself for the avalance of criticism from those unable or unwilling to see the long term picture.

EvilJuan · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject:

Counsell · MLB Rookie Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Posts: 220

Well, I simply don't agree. The implication of what you're saying is that we're going to miss Gonzo, Green and Counsell - that their production will SUBSTANTIALLY exceed next year's production by Byrnes/DaVannon, Quentin, and Drew. I'm betting on better overall production - even early in the season - by the latter group.

And I see no reason that the 2007 pitching can't be at least as good as in 2006 - and almost certainly better.

Or am I missing something?

moviegeekjn · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject:

<< Or am I missing something? >>

It might be, but there IS no guarantee.... especially since so much energy this season was spent on placating a few PVs instead of going full bore into the necessary rebuilding phase. Next year's team could parallel what we're seeing from the Marlins, but the odds of being a legitimate playoff contender is more likely at least another year away.

stu · Everyday Player Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 560

Drew should be able to exceed Counsell's line and add some runs here. Dare we hope for 2-3 extra wins here?

CQ (currently 244/335/511) should be able to match Green's 283/348/429 line and maybe add a win or two with D.

Young to me is a real question mark for next year. I think he is a quality player, but I haven't seen him enough (thanks Bob) to say how he will do next year.

I think Hairston could match Gonzo's Offense, but Byrnes won't. If there were intelligent usage lf could add a game but that is too much to hope for so say a push here.

Let's say that Byrnes and Young give production equal to Byrnes this year for cf.

So for the youngsters a real rough guess would be to add 3-4 wins.

IMO, the real hope for contention next year based on the current crop is for Tracy and Jackson to improve.

Pitching has to be overhauled so I think it is premature to think about that now.

shoewizard · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject:

levski · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1763

tmar · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1184

My goal for next year would be to be only a few games out come the end of September, which is about a 5-6 game improvement over this year.

I think the hitting will just about net out but the fielding should be much better. Pitching is too early to tell.