Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: The DH rule
Well this started over on the Dback board and I believe I know how this will fall but here goes, How do You feel about the DH Rule?
Personally I can't stand it.. Nine guys play the game and they should all have to play the entire game. Its a simple game: Hit the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball.
Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: Re: The DH rule
csktech wrote:
Well this started over on the Dback board and I believe I know how this will fall but here goes, How do You feel about the DH Rule?
Personally I can't stand it.. Nine guys play the game and they should all have to play the entire game. Its a simple game: Hit the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball.
Now those who want to vote "whatever" have the opportunity to do so...
heh.. I still additional category. I don't like the DH, but can't honestly say "hate" it... and I'm not in the "whatever" category.
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Ok I can't leave well enough alone. If the entire league played with the Dh, we would miss such gems like Randy Johnson hitting his one career homerun. I swear to god, I was smiling about that for a week.
Make pichers hit.. play real baseball. Ban the DH
Kyle
Go Dbacks
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Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject:
i remember a game in 2004 where randy was pitching really well, but the defense was booting play after play behind him. he ended up giving up 2 or 3 unearned runs that inning. so then, the next inning, it comes down to where there are 2 or 3 runners on base, 2 outs, and randy's up. he STILL looks pissed off at his defense from earlier, and he just smacks the shit out of a ball, sending it into the right center gap. cleared the bases, put the team back in the game.
it was amazing. it was as if randy was saying, "fuck you all, if i gotta do everything to win this damn game, i'll do it!"
so yeah, i voted against the DH.
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I've said all this before, but I like it the way it is with one league with and one without. I take some offense to Counsell calling me "not a true fan" for having this taste.
I have made an arguement that the NL should actually be the one to switch on either this version or the previous version of this board and on others before.
I will say Kyle that nine guys rarely play the whole game for a team. Nine men are on the field at once, and nine men make up a lineup, but team will play up to 15 or so players in a game. There are many of them who don't play the entire game.
I've said all this before, but I like it the way it is with one league with and one without. I take some offense to Counsell calling me "not a true fan" for having this taste.
I have made an arguement that the NL should actually be the one to switch on either this version or the previous version of this board and on others before.
I will say Kyle that nine guys rarely play the whole game for a team. Nine men are on the field at once, and nine men make up a lineup, but team will play up to 15 or so players in a game. There are many of them who don't play the entire game.
Thats why I created this poll. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You like it I dont.. so lets agree to disagree and find something else to talk about
but you have to admit Randy's homerun was awesome
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:18 am Post subject:
csktech wrote:
If the entire league played with the Dh, we would miss such gems like Randy Johnson hitting his one career homerun.
We'd also miss the endless number of pitchers flailing away and striking out on three pitches so they can get back to the bench as soon as possible.
Personally, I don't care either way. I don't enjoy the games I watch in Seattle with the DH any less than the ones I see when I travel around to NL cities in other parts of the country. The only difference is that my scorecard gets more of a work out at NL games.
I've said all this before, but I like it the way it is with one league with and one without. I take some offense to Counsell calling me "not a true fan" for having this taste.
I have made an arguement that the NL should actually be the one to switch on either this version or the previous version of this board and on others before.
I will say Kyle that nine guys rarely play the whole game for a team. Nine men are on the field at once, and nine men make up a lineup, but team will play up to 15 or so players in a game. There are many of them who don't play the entire game.
Thats why I created this poll. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You like it I dont.. so lets agree to disagree and find something else to talk about
but you have to admit Randy's homerun was awesome
I'm confused, did you start this thread/poll to just take a head count and not discuss or debate the issue or did you just expect a rah rah behind your belief and when countered you politely decide to cut off discussion?
I've said all this before, but I like it the way it is with one league with and one without. I take some offense to Counsell calling me "not a true fan" for having this taste.
I have made an arguement that the NL should actually be the one to switch on either this version or the previous version of this board and on others before.
I will say Kyle that nine guys rarely play the whole game for a team. Nine men are on the field at once, and nine men make up a lineup, but team will play up to 15 or so players in a game. There are many of them who don't play the entire game.
Thats why I created this poll. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You like it I dont.. so lets agree to disagree and find something else to talk about
but you have to admit Randy's homerun was awesome
I'm confused, did you start this thread/poll to just take a head count and not discuss or debate the issue or did you just expect a rah rah behind your belief and when countered you politely decide to cut off discussion?
Honestly it was just to take the pulse of the members of the board. I am willing to listen to the counterpoint, but I'm 99 percent sure that I wont change my mind, and I'm equally convinced you aren't going to change your mind either. This is just one of the issies that polarize fans.
Would you like to start a pro and cons list for the DH?
I'll start with a few cons.
1 The DH rule allows pitchers to intentally hit other players without the threat of retalation. Instead, others on the team get hit for thier actions. and No, I dont condone playing bean ball. It gets out of hand and usually ends up going way to far. Dback vs Dodgers last year was a good point in fact.
2 Over specialazation. The DH rule gives older or players that really cant do anything other than hit a chance to play, thus blocking someone. Granted this can also be a pro, just it does let players past their prime that can still hit play the game.
3. Its unfair that one league plays with the DH and one doesnt, one or the other, obviously Im for the no DH.
4 The No DH requires the managers to actually plot and plan a strategy.
Ok enough for now, I'm eagerly waiting on your reply.
Kyle
Go Dbacks
I always reserve teh righ to be wrong, I so often am
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:11 am Post subject:
Ok, some pros...
1) I don't have a problem with "specialization." I mean, I don't see you bemoaning left handed one out relievers. When I was younger, I loved getting to watch players like Tony Oliva, Willie Horton, Rico Carty and Orlando Cepeda, who because of age and injuries couldn't play in the field, but boy, they could still rake. As a Brewer fan, I say thank god there was a DH to keep Paul Molitor healthy enough to show he's a Hall of Fame hitter. As a native of the Pacific NW, I relish the opportunities I got to watch Edgar Martinez, perhaps the purest hitter I've ever seen.
2) There are whole new strategies with the DH in place, mainly involved when to remove your starting pitcher. In the NL it's cut and dried. It's the later innings, your team is behind, you pinch hit. Where is the strategy there? In the AL, the manager and pitching coach actually have to monitor a pitcher closer and decide when to remove him.
3) If it's indeed "unfair" to have the leagues play by different rules, why not choose the DH? It creates more excitement for the fans, and puts an end to all those woeful at bats where pitchers either strike out, or look foolish trying to bunt. Which leads me to point 4...
4) Less bunts. For the true baseball saber fans, that's seen as a step for the better.
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:20 am Post subject:
David B wrote:
When I was younger, I loved getting to watch players like Tony Oliva, Willie Horton, Rico Carty and Orlando Cepeda, who because of age and injuries couldn't play in the field, but boy, they could still rake. As a Brewer fan, I say thank god there was a DH to keep Paul Molitor healthy enough to show he's a Hall of Fame hitter. As a native of the Pacific NW, I relish the opportunities I got to watch Edgar Martinez, perhaps the purest hitter I've ever seen.
I'm not a fan of the DH, but I'll add Hammerin' Hank Aaron during his closing chapter with the Brewers to the above list.
While I generally enjoy non DL style games, I must admit that I often do get irked when Tony LaRussa fully employs ALL his options interminably in the late innings when it's not always warranted.
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1) I don't have a problem with "specialization." I mean, I don't see you bemoaning left handed one out relievers. When I was younger, I loved getting to watch players like Tony Oliva, Willie Horton, Rico Carty and Orlando Cepeda, who because of age and injuries couldn't play in the field, but boy, they could still rake. As a Brewer fan, I say thank god there was a DH to keep Paul Molitor healthy enough to show he's a Hall of Fame hitter. As a native of the Pacific NW, I relish the opportunities I got to watch Edgar Martinez, perhaps the purest hitter I've ever seen.
2) There are whole new strategies with the DH in place, mainly involved when to remove your starting pitcher. In the NL it's cut and dried. It's the later innings, your team is behind, you pinch hit. Where is the strategy there? In the AL, the manager and pitching coach actually have to monitor a pitcher closer and decide when to remove him.
3) If it's indeed "unfair" to have the leagues play by different rules, why not choose the DH? It creates more excitement for the fans, and puts an end to all those woeful at bats where pitchers either strike out, or look foolish trying to bunt. Which leads me to point 4...
4) Less bunts. For the true baseball saber fans, that's seen as a step for the better.
Renumber 4 Im atually a fan of the bunt and advancing the runner. There is something elegant about watching a properly laid down bunt.
While watching homeruns is fun, I find it much more interesting to watch teams play small ball. Had our manager learned when to play small ball we might have won an additional 10 games last year. Maybe, hard to say but for one would like to see it happen more.
Sadly, BoMel always seemed to be always waiting for the two run homer to win the game. On the few occasions that he did play small ball he started it too late in the game for it to have a big effect.
Kyle
Go Dbacks
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:31 am Post subject:
csktech wrote:
Had our manager learned when to play small ball we might have won an additional 10 games last year. Maybe, hard to say but for one would like to see it happen more.
Sadly, BoMel always seemed to be always waiting for the two run homer to win the game. On the few occasions that he did play small ball he started it too late in the game for it to have a big effect.
Hmmmm...I think I'm going to leave this one for someone else to debate you on. I will say that Earl Weaver carved out a nice career for himself waiting on the three run homer.
Oh I'm not against anyone not perfering the DH, as long as they can admit that it's pretty much a visceral feeling of dislike and that there isn't much of a logical arguement against it as the anti-DH crowd likes to pretend, similarly to how you just did.
Studies have shown that although there have been more HBP in the NL, the % of pitchers who get hit while batting are practically non existant. This probably means there are more "hardass" pitchers in the NL, or more "old-school" managers in the NL, or just coincedense, but it in no way shows pitchers have to answer for their actions.
It's usually the other teams slugger. After all, the pitcher is an automatic out, why would you give him the base and give up the out to be macho? That's just stupid.
Over specialization is rampant in MLB as David stated already.
Why is it "unfair"? When NL and AL teams play each other they can both have an advantage depending on the home park. It is worth noting that with the small sample size caveats, the difference between AL and NL pitcher batting lines is nothing.
David has addressed this, but unless you equate "strategy" with "common wisdom" then there isn't any more strategy in the NL than the AL. The double switch, the catcher hitting 8th, the SAC bunt, these are not strategies when everyone does them the same way.
Aside from the NL and the Japan Central League, every organized baseball team uses a DH from LL up. Minor League pitchers for NL teams don't get to hit in over half their games. NL pitchers don't get any sort of relavent batting practice tutoring. The Jumbotron doesn't even show a pitchers batting line when he's up, they show his pitching line. Now how serious does the NL take pitchers hitting considering these things?
Baseball is entertainment, we pay good money to see players perform at the highest level in the skills they display. This consideration loses meaning the moment a pitcher steps in the batters box.
Oh I'm not against anyone not perfering the DH, as long as they can admit that it's pretty much a visceral feeling of dislike and that there isn't much of a logical arguement against it as the anti-DH crowd likes to pretend, similarly to how you just did.
Studies have shown that although there have been more HBP in the NL, the % of pitchers who get hit while batting are practically non existant. This probably means there are more "hardass" pitchers in the NL, or more "old-school" managers in the NL, or just coincedense, but it in no way shows pitchers have to answer for their actions.
It's usually the other teams slugger. After all, the pitcher is an automatic out, why would you give him the base and give up the out to be macho? That's just stupid.
Over specialization is rampant in MLB as David stated already.
Why is it "unfair"? When NL and AL teams play each other they can both have an advantage depending on the home park. It is worth noting that with the small sample size caveats, the difference between AL and NL pitcher batting lines is nothing.
David has addressed this, but unless you equate "strategy" with "common wisdom" then there isn't any more strategy in the NL than the AL. The double switch, the catcher hitting 8th, the SAC bunt, these are not strategies when everyone does them the same way.
Aside from the NL and the Japan Central League, every organized baseball team uses a DH from LL up. Minor League pitchers for NL teams don't get to hit in over half their games. NL pitchers don't get any sort of relavent batting practice tutoring. The Jumbotron doesn't even show a pitchers batting line when he's up, they show his pitching line. Now how serious does the NL take pitchers hitting considering these things?
Baseball is entertainment, we pay good money to see players perform at the highest level in the skills they display. This consideration loses meaning the moment a pitcher steps in the batters box.
Oh I'll readily admit that. But the DH gives a free pass to two players, the picher who can't hit and the hitter that can't play the field. That strikes me as unfair, thus my dislike of the rule.
Look at the Giants: Barry has been a sub par outfielder as of late and more than likely will decline even further this year. The Giants have to accept that in order to get whatever offense he offers this year into the lineup.
If the NL had the DH rule the odds are Barry would hit as DH this year and more than likely, for a few more years.
Kyle
Go Dbacks
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