Diamondbacks Bullpen

foulpole · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1358

Should a DH be considered for MVP???

Oden · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:05 am Post subject:

He was 2nd to A-Rod last year and received a lot of 1st place votes, so apparently the voters think so. I can see arguments for, but if a guy is such a bad defender that he can't even play 1B for more than 10 games (Ortiz played 10 last year), he shouldn't be considered a baseball player, but a professional hitter.

Oden · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:06 am Post subject:

Then again, I'm still bitter about Ortiz from a Twins fan point of view, so I'm not the best judge of him. I'm a hater.

McCray · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:17 am Post subject:

would you also have to disqualify, then, a really really amazing starting pitcher, because they don't really do anything at all with the bat? i'm about as anti-dh as it goes, but ortiz was the difference for about 10-15 wins for boston so far it seems. the guy's unreal. i would consider him.

'sides, isn't his contribution to the team only on offense greater than, for instance, manny, who is also superhuman with the bat but the worst leftfielder in the history of anyone doing anything, ever?

foulpole · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1358

McCray · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:

yes, strangely, it would. see, ortiz contributes runs with his bats.

manny contributes runs with his bat, but detracts quite a few with his defense.

which is more valuable to the team?

foulpole · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1358

Oden · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am Post subject:

Hey, it's all about winning games. Which player is more valuable to a team? The one who helps them win the most games. No doubt a player helps a team win with his bat. All the best hitters do.

McCray · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am Post subject:

if we're talking about what baseball should be, then i agree with you. the dh is wrong. it violates the first rule of baseball -- it's a game played by two teams comprised of 9 players each. dh rules are just wrong.

but it is a rule. ortiz shouldn't be penalized because mlb decided to create his position. baseball should be penalized, but not the dh's themselves.

i watch a lot of boston games. this guy is their mvp. no doubt.

foulpole · Veteran Presence Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 1358

Manny has logged 954 1/3 innings in LF and Ortiz has logged 68 at 1B this year.

That comes out to about 150 hours that Manny has been playing D while Ortiz has been sitting in the shaded dugout.

I feel that this could have a major impact on the fatigue factor.

Plus the negative weight of poor D numbers work against Manny in this case.

Should this fact not have a major impact on voting Ortiz over Manny?

Plus there is a very limited if any positive defensive contribution from Ortiz.

McCray · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject:

fp,

in the al, there is a position that does not play defense. david ortiz might just be the best at that position. and his play at that position has given boston the only breaks they've caught all season. he has been the mvp to boston, no doubt. sure, it's probably easier to hit as a dh than to hit as a lfer, but it's also probably easier to play as a 1bman than a ss. do we discount 1bmen because of that when considering if they're mvp?

i hate the dh. i think it's wrong. but the fact is, it's here to stay, and he's the best of the best at it. just because i don't like the position doesn't mean a guy in that position doesn't create the most value to his team.

Robert S. · Everyday Player Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 530

AL MVP is actually sorta interesting this year. Hafner's probably the best hitter and I'd wager that Mauer is the actual best player once you factor in defense and position, but Jeter has got to be the favorite.

Dylan · MLB Rookie Joined: 11 Aug 2006 Posts: 235

shoewizard · Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:17 am Post subject:

Win Shares

stu · Everyday Player Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 560

We had a similar discusssion years ago about Edgar Martinez as a HOFer. I think the consensus was pretty close to what Dylan has posted (if I am reading him right).

That is, that a dh should be considered for the HOF or the MVP but their batting numbers have to be much better than players with similar numbers who played in the field. I'd say deduct the cost of the worst fielder on the team at a corner position and then add a few percentage points. Just where Dylan, I think, comes out.

After all, relief pitchers have won the award. I think even a loogy could win it. Of course, it would have to be 33 ip (99 appearances) with the bases loaded and the tying run on third and a k every time, but what are dreams for.

Every player has a MVP award in his duffel bag.

McCray · Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject:

i don't think lh specialist is on par with dh, due to the amount they help their teams. a good lh specialist, as you stated, has around 30 ip, or 90 opposition plate appearances. a good dh has 500+ plate appearances. all i'm saying is that the dh is an integral part of al baseball. you really can't compete without one. loogie is not yet that.

(here's something i'd like to know: ortiz has 500+ PAs a year. manny has 500+ PAs plus all his chances in LF to affect an opposition PA, minus the times he fucks up and lets runners on. which is greater? is that a good way to weigh each player? am i thinking about this in the right way? remember: i'm new to stats in general. i'm trying here.)

but i am willing to concede then that not all positions are equal. let's assume for a second we're not talking about LEAGUE MVP, but TEAM MVP. who has that been for boston? ortiz and manny are the two who gave that team a good chunk more wins than they had any business getting. i'm a boston fan, but boston is a bad bad team this year masquerading as a good one, and those two are the only reason they've really stayed afloat.

i don't think ortiz can win the mvp, but not because he's a dh. i don't think he'll win a league-wide mvp just because boston won't be a good enough club to get him considered when the season ends. he'll get some votes, but not enough. but IF boston won the whole she-bang, THEN i could see an argument that, despite being dh, ortiz contributed more to that team in terms of wins than any other player on that team.

does that make sense? i'm certain i'm changing stances, but you have good points, dylan. and also, i drank last night and i'm either hungover or still drunk.

to recap: loogies suck. ortiz is very valuable. mauer should win. jeter will. i think i might have made an equation somewhere in there. it's probably a bad one. no mas tequila por favor. Laughing

Oden · Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject:

I don't like the loogy comparison. LOOGY is not a position, it's a role. AL lineup cards do have a spot for DH, but there's no defensive position called LOOGY. It's just pitcher.

Screw the poor LOOGY. If they want equal rights, they should go find a corporate sponsor the the LOOGYOTY award. Same for utility players. Screw 'em.

This is all academic anyway, because the guys who vote for MVP are completely led by the media and not by using their own analysis. ESPN says a closer is having a great year? Hmmm, I think I'll vote for him.