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Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson
http://forum.diamondbacksbullpen.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2397
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Author:  David B [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

The Diamondbacks have reached a deal to acquire starter Jeremy Hellickson from the Rays, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports on Twitter. Outfielder Justin Williams is at least part of the return for Tampa, Chris Cotillo of MLBDailyDish.com tweets.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/d ... ckson.html

Author:  misterx [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Nick Piecoro
@nickpiecoro
Told Dbacks are getting Jeremy Hellickson from the Rays for prospects OF Justin Williams and SS Andrew Velazquez.

Author:  the goat [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Ugggh. Does not fit well and not a fan of what they gave up.

Author:  Dre [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Brutal, gave up too much

Author:  JoeCB91 [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Ugh. This helps nothing

Author:  David B [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Different ponies, same horseshit.

Author:  JoeCB91 [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Well, if they don't trash Velasquez/Williams to the media the new GM is a step up at least I guess?

Author:  shoewizard [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Will repost here what I wrote in the other thread, BEFORE I knew they gave up Williams and Velazquez.

THUMBS DOWN :evil:

Quote:
His 2014 small sample size increase in K % is thanks mostly to a jump in strike looking percentage. His strike swinging percentage not much change. Also batters percentage of swung at strikes percentage went down. That combination , in small sample size, can lead to a jump in K rate , but it's probably not sustainable.

Also, don't forget to take into account the relation between his K % and league average, which has gone up

AL K %/ Hellickson K%/Delta

2014 20.2%/19.2%/ -1.0%
2013 20.0%/18.3%/-1.7%
2012 19.4%/16.7%/-2.7%
2011 18.1%/15.1%/-3.0


HERE is same thing represented in graph form, for easier visual

He has closed the delta between himself and league avg K rate steadily over the last 3 years, so thats good. But clearly he is dependent on spotting his fastball just so in order to get guys taking at strikes and swinging at balls, and is still a FB pitcher giving up homers.

Sorry, I just don't see it.

He'll make 11-12 million over the next two years and this team has internal options that are likely to perform just as well for 1/10th the amount. Thats the main point for me. Unless you think he will give you a 3.80 ERA in 180 innings,....which I doubt.

Pass

When calculating the cost of what they would have to give up, you then have to add that to the cost of opportunity lost. As I mention, you probably have internal options that will give you the same performance level for league minimum.

If Hellickson gives you 2 WAR over the next two years for 12 million you roughly break even on his WAR/Dollar cost.

If Vlad Nuno or Chase Anderson or Randall Delgado or a host of others give you 2 WAR over the next years for 1 million than you bank about 11 Million, AND you've furthered the development of an in house option and can build on that for their Arbitration years, or use them as trade value.

Hellickson offers virtually no upside, and no future trade value, and a break even at best scenario on WAR/Dollar cost.

All this before you even take into account what you gave up to get him.

Now if you are dumping significantly more salary on another team, as Qudjy just mentioned, that would change the calculus somewhat. But think about who the trading partner is and THEIR parameters. I doubt they are looking to take on salary.

Author:  JoeCB91 [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Oh...

https://twitter.com/JackMagruder/status/533463434633809920

#Dbacks RHP Hellickson will move into the No. 2 or No. 3 spot in the rotation, GM Dave Stewart said. Still interested in Billingsley

Author:  dbag [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/quick- ... -and-hand/

A little tidbit about Hellickson on Fangraphs. Author is very impressed...NOT. He has a good changeup but is a flyball pitcher. Hopefully the new regime knows something we don't because once again they are depleting the farm system for a 4 or 5 starter. How many #4's or 5's can a team carry? Doesn't anybody want to trade their prospects for OUR garbage pitchers.

Author:  EvilJuan [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

dbag wrote:
How many #4's or 5's can a team carry?


Oh, four or five... or more, depending.

This type of decision fills me with confidence...

...that the Who knew what they were singing when they sang, "Meet the new boss: same as the old boss." :cry:

Author:  shoewizard [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

A friend of mine said every time he reads Hellickson's name he thinks of Rick Helling.

I told him we should be so lucky. Helling gave the D backs 30 starts, 175 IP, 101 ERA+ and 2.0 bWAR for 3 million dollars, or in 2014 money, 4 million dollars. (Using standard inflation calculators....if using baseball inflation than figure about 4.5 Million, which is easily what Hellickson will get in arbitration.

THAT represents the upside with Hellickson in my opinion.

Author:  shoewizard [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Well, this is an encouraging thread

(Calibrate sarcasm meter before clicking on link)

From the article
Quote:
The former Rookie of the Year found himself in poor standing with the club after waiting until after his arbitration was settled to report elbow discomfort in January. The result was elbow surgery to clear out bone spurs, and delay of Hellickson's return to the rotation by a few months.



The comments are brutal.

Author:  stu [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

As usual Shoe has hit the nail on the head. What the trade does show is the new FO has no knowledge and/or respect for these new fangled statistic (that are at least 12 years old). Even the basic FIP shows Hellickson as a 4.36 era pitcher. In his 2 best years his FIPS were 4.44 and 4.60. If they are hoping he is going to repeat his best years, two words: Trevor Cahill.

This reminds me of Dessens and Ortiz. FIPS showed them as being below average pitchers. We told them they were bad moves and the FO did not listen. This is the same for Hellickson.

The trade also violates a basic principle of saber metrics that you don't trade young cheap players for a more costly player when you have cheaper options in your system. This is a classis Rays trade of getting something for a not so good player who is going to be be more expensive.

Hell made 3.625M last year in 1 arb. A normal raise under the 40/60/80 rule would mean 5.4M although I think shoe's 4M is closer to CW. My bet would be over 4M and that is money that could be better used elsewhere. This is just like Towers paying top dollar for two mediocre players rather than getting a decent player at a higher price.

All in all very discouraging on a number of fronts.

Author:  wedge [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

fire Stewart

Author:  JoeCB91 [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

I am surprised that so many people on FB/Twitter think he is a good pitcher too.

Guess the "do no wrong" crowd is back.

Author:  ReTired [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Did they ever leave? The DRB things I've read are not so kind.

Author:  dirtygary [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Meet the new dbax, same as the old dbax.

Once again, a front office that fails to understand calculated risk. And the fact they are going to have to accept some to build a club capable of winning the division.

All this trade accomplished was giving away 2 guys with the potential to contribute down the road for free while doing nothing to stabilize the rotation.

The problem with Hellickson is that he does nothing to move the needle towards unexpected positive performance. There's a very clear ceiling for what we can expect. Whereas, we've seen guys like Miley and Corbin come up and perform unexpectedly well - and for free. This club has no business buying mediocrity for depth. If they have to invest significant resources towards that issue, there are already much bigger flaws in the org and a back-of-rotation guy isn't going to fix that.

Author:  dbacks_Nation [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

Huge overpay. Has this organization learned nothing?

Author:  shoewizard [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diamondbacks to acquire Hellickson

stu wrote:
As usual Shoe has hit the nail on the head. What the trade does show is the new FO has no knowledge and/or respect for these new fangled statistic (that are at least 12 years old). Even the basic FIP shows Hellickson as a 4.36 era pitcher. In his 2 best years his FIPS were 4.44 and 4.60. If they are hoping he is going to repeat his best years, two words: Trevor Cahill.

This reminds me of Dessens and Ortiz. FIPS showed them as being below average pitchers. We told them they were bad moves and the FO did not listen. This is the same for Hellickson.

The trade also violates a basic principle of saber metrics that you don't trade young cheap players for a more costly player when you have cheaper options in your system. This is a classis Rays trade of getting something for a not so good player who is going to be be more expensive.

Hell made 3.625M last year in 1 arb. A normal raise under the 40/60/80 rule would mean 5.4M although I think shoe's 4M is closer to CW. My bet would be over 4M and that is money that could be better used elsewhere. This is just like Towers paying top dollar for two mediocre players rather than getting a decent player at a higher price.

All in all very discouraging on a number of fronts.


I thought about invoking Cahill. Good call

Hellickson 6th highest FIP among all pitchers with at least 550 innings since 2011 . Total 70+ pitchers in all BB REF Report Link

Drop the threshold to 500 IP and he still has the 9th highet FIP

But he pitches in the AL you say and BB REF FIP is not park and league adjusted........well TB is a pitchers home park too. Fangraphs has FIP-. Hellickson has a 115 FIP- (Lower is better), which is the 6th worst mark in MLB among pitchers with 550 IP

Link

Just absurd, and extremely disheartening. There is no magic pixie dust here. This is just a bad trade that immediately exposes some very serious flaws, and mostly the same flaws, in the evaluation of pitchers. I know this smacks of extreme Hubris. After all you have TLR, Duncan, Stewart, Watson.....all guys that should know better.........but if I'm wrong on this one I'll eat my hat.

EDIT: Fixed the first report link

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