I understand why they would want AJ lower in the order, but nobody else on the roster seems to really fit that spot besides Lamb (slow but knows how to draw walks) and Goldy, but we all know they would never hit Goldy at leadoff.

Even if AJ hitting leadoff means you have lesser hitters in the 4 or 2 spot, I think that because he gets on base more it will help the Dbacks score more runs with him getting more PAs than having shitty hitters at leadoff.

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Kevin Towers, not smarter than the so called experts

"2016 to do List"

Re-think the uniforms.

Just bat pitcher 8th and all is good.

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Good depth often has to come from within, in the form of younger talent. Depth is hard to build overnight, but it’s easy to deplete. Jeff Sullivan

This. I don't have the foggiest idea what it means, but I repeat it at dinner and my boys are impressed. #cooldad

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What a joke; Team. Manager. GM. CEO. Cindy Brunson. Todd Walsh. Steve Berthiaume. Polo shirts. Entire organization. I want to insert that 18-inch corn dog into each one of their a$$es...slowly. Then re-sell the corn dogs to Dodger fans.

The idea is the 9th and leadoff hitters will be hitting back to back. So if the pitcher makes the final out hitting 8th, you have a "leadoff" guy the next inning rather than Snyder/other shitty player striking out and having the pitchers spot due up first. I have never seen numbers that this is a real concept other than "it worked a couple of times...", maybe i have missed something. Well, if people like it so much, I must have....
AL teams do bat a decent hitter 9th though, I just am unsure how it carries over to the NL....

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Per Mare, Per Terras

Thx, Justin. And continuing this line of thought further into a ballgame...is the notion that the pitcher would not end up with one additional AB more than the #9 hitter in the box score because of PH'ers appearing the latter innings?

This seems like sound managing. Why haven't NL teams done this...what's the drawback to the pitcher in the #8 spot, tradition? Thanks again, Justion (and Shoe) for the putting this issue out there and discussing for the novice readers.

EDITED due to "Quote" issues.

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What a joke; Team. Manager. GM. CEO. Cindy Brunson. Todd Walsh. Steve Berthiaume. Polo shirts. Entire organization. I want to insert that 18-inch corn dog into each one of their a$$es...slowly. Then re-sell the corn dogs to Dodger fans.

http://insidethezona.com/2016/03/zona-2015-2016-offseason-report-card/

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Kevin Towers, not smarter than the so called experts

Rumors that St Louis is interested in trading for Ahmed

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/03/cardinals-considering-nick-ahmed-jhonny-peralta.html

Even though his bat is worthless, I have more faith in him at SS than Owings or Segura.

EDIT: Owings not Ahmed, you idiot that keeps forgetting to proofread posts.

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Kevin Towers, not smarter than the so called experts

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Per Mare, Per Terras

Link

Yeah, right.

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Per Mare, Per Terras

I don't really know, I think it might be a case of "this is how it has always been!!!!!" It would be nice if someone else with more knowledge posted...since I am interested too..

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Per Mare, Per Terras

Jethwaker makes a good point., however digest this first

The average NL pitcher had a .160 OBP last year, while the average OBP from the 8th spot in the order last year was .302

Generally the worst hitter was always batting last, and the worst hitter, with a few rare exceptions in history, is always the pitcher. The number 9 hitter gets fewer PA's of course....but pitchers seldom throw complete games in the modern game and the average start is barely 6 IP, if that. So often by the time the pitchers 3rd time to bat rolls around, he is lifted for a pinch hitter.

Pitchers accounted for 5015 of the National League PA's last year, or roughly half all the other position players

link

They only average about 2.2 PA per game.

So batting the pitcher 8th has virtually zero impact with regards to how often they bat.

So therefore it becomes purely an exercise in lineup construction.

Ironically Hale has mentioned that batting Greinke 8th works because he can hit, but the other guys need to prove they can "handle the task".

This shows that Hale doesn't even understand the concept. There are virtually no differences between batting 8th and 9th in terms of RBI opportunities, or strategic importance. Well there is a little, but it is so minimal, so fractional, as to be completely unimportant.

HOWEVER....the difference of having even a weak hitter, with say a .300 OBP batting in front of your leadoff hitter, as opposed to a pitcher with a .160 OBP (NL Avg last year for pitchers) IS a big deal. The additional opportunities for your #1 and #2 hitters creates enough more offense to actually be meaningful.

But baseball tradition is hard to bust through, and confirmation bias runs rampant. The first time the pitcher batting 8th taps into a double play with one out and runners on first and second, or strikes out to end the inning with runner in scoring position, managers and others start to second guess the strategy. They are just not wired to have the appearance of looking silly....even though it's not at all.

Here is a good read

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Good depth often has to come from within, in the form of younger talent. Depth is hard to build overnight, but it’s easy to deplete. Jeff Sullivan

Also......

Does anyone remember Brian Downing ?

He was a very underrated player , who played for the Angels, White Sox, and Rangers between 1973-1992

He started out as a catcher, moved to the outfield after 600+ games at catcher, and split the rest of his career between OF and DH.,

He had a career 122 OPS+ and 51 WAR in over 9000 PA's , and finished up at age 41 with a 138 OPS+ !

He hit 275 career homers, walked almost 1200 times, but stole just 50 bases and got caught 44 times. He had a career triple slash of .267/.370/.425,

Looks like a typical #5 hitter to most people.

Here is the thing, he had his best and most effective seasons BATTING LEADOFF. He had more PA's at the leadoff spot in the order than any other in his career. His managers smartly used him that way simply because he got on base a lot. He wasn't fast, obviously. And they weren't worried about "wasting" his power. He was just so valuable getting on base.

Funny....for all the sabermetric revolution, can you imagine a team putting a guy like that leadoff nowadays ? NOBODY does it.

Downing career splits

Downing career page

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Good depth often has to come from within, in the form of younger talent. Depth is hard to build overnight, but it’s easy to deplete. Jeff Sullivan

Brian Downing was one of the first players that I can remember getting into lifting weights. He also had some injuries (including a fractured ankle) that forced the Angels to move him out from behind the plate to the outfield. The added strength from the weights and a new open batting stance turned Downing from a nondescript catcher into a very valuable player. As an outfielder he didn't have the greatest range, but he handled everything he got to (he made only 7 errors in 777 games in the OF).

At the time people thought it was a brilliant move by Gene Mauch to bat him leadoff. The idea never really gained wide acceptance, probably because Rickey Henderson and Tim Raines were playing and everybody wanted to find themselves a leadoff man like them (even if it meant giving 700+ plate appearances to players like Omar Moreno).

Great stuff Bobster, thanks for contributing to the conversation

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Good depth often has to come from within, in the form of younger talent. Depth is hard to build overnight, but it’s easy to deplete. Jeff Sullivan

Thanks for the info Shoe. I knew I could count on you

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Per Mare, Per Terras

My pleasure.

1979 Angels baseball is right in my wheelhouse. I followed them pretty close in the Brian Downing-Reggie Jackson-Fred Lynn-Bobby Grich-Don Baylor-Rod Carew-Doug DeCinces-Bob Boone years.

I may have listened to the Dodgers for years (only because of Vin Scully), but I was never really a fan.

Thanks Bobster, Shoe and Justin for drilling down into the facts, theories and history behind batting pitchers in the 8 spot. VERY interesting and it's info like this that I find this website so valuable for.

Cheers.

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What a joke; Team. Manager. GM. CEO. Cindy Brunson. Todd Walsh. Steve Berthiaume. Polo shirts. Entire organization. I want to insert that 18-inch corn dog into each one of their a$$es...slowly. Then re-sell the corn dogs to Dodger fans.

In today's Mets-Marlins game, Mattingly is using the DH but Collins is not. The more I think of it, and the more information I read (Shoe), the less I opposed to adopting the DH at some point. One thing is for sure, the AL is not getting rid of theirs... Can we stick Obrien in Tucson (oh, wait) Reno until the next CBA?

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Per Mare, Per Terras

As much as I like the rare times when a pitcher hits a HR, it is pretty inevitable at this point so I'd rather see them just get it done at some point.

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Kevin Towers, not smarter than the so called experts