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8/12 Marlins @ D-Backs
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stu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got me there. Laughing
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TAP
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stu wrote:
Seriously, I am all for hustling. I just think that running all out all the time is not the best way to spend your energy. Especially now that greenies are supposedly banned.

Stu, how does one determine when hustling is good or bad? I've seen numerous long singles over recent years that could have been doubles or occasionally even triples had the batter not stood to admire his assumed HR.

And ground balls bobbled by infielders that still become outs only because the hitter assumed he was out and didn't run hard to 1st.

Where do you draw a line on when it's okay to stroll and when a player should hustle?
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foulpole
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:


Where do you draw a line on when it's okay to stroll and when a player should hustle?


I'm going to chime in on this one.

I like to see position players running out ground balls etc. but if I'm cutting slack on this issue it would first go to pitchers and catchers.

I would rather see the pitchers use their legs on the hill than sprinting down the 1st base line on a ground out.

As far as catchers go it's a pretty grooling season for the guys behind the plate so if J E doesn't run his ass off on every ground ball I'm ok with that.
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stu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I don't think it is ever OK for a player to stroll. Just as I assume you agree that it is not wise to hustle to the point of running into walls on a regular basis. So we are talking about the plays in between.

I tried to distinguish between hustling and running all out all the time. I don't think any player (even Byrnes) runs all out all the time. On routine grounders, players will run at 80-90%. On singles they will do the same unless they see a posibility of a double. How many times do you see a player "turn it on" going from first to second or from second to third. If he was already running full out, he could not turn it on.

Head first slides when the player could come in standing up are unnecessary "hustle" to me. Same for running as hard as you can to get right next to the person catching the ball. Turning cartwheels after the throw.. Running yourself into outs. Overthrowing the cutoff man because you are throwing the ball too hard and too fast. These are some examples.

Byrnes is is a funny example for me. I hated his style when he played for Oakland. He was a bonehead player. Throwing to the wrong base. Missing cutoff men. In the worst example, running so hard that he missed home in the playoff game and was so caught up in the moment that he didn't go back and touch it.

Here, for some reason, I find his play enjoyable. Not sure why. It may be I don't have any real expectations for this team and am being pleasantly surpised. It may be that after last year, he is such a breath of fresh air. It may be that he is playing better here.
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Robert S.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XB3 wrote:
Who predicted the Byrnes season fade? Is his 0-3, BB night indicative of the what you think will be his late season decline?

I predicted and continue to predict it from Byrnes and Estrada.
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B. O. N. D.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert S. wrote:
XB3 wrote:
Who predicted the Byrnes season fade? Is his 0-3, BB night indicative of the what you think will be his late season decline?

I predicted and continue to predict it from Byrnes and Estrada.


Keep predicting. It's only the second week of August. One more monthish to go. Rolling Eyes

Seriously. I think I bet my firstborn to Shoe on this... Shocked
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Robert S.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dibs on the second! I want one with a strong back to work mah land.
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levski
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant to write "Callaspo at SS"... thanks for the reports.
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moviegeekjn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
Where do you draw a line on when it's okay to stroll and when a player should hustle?


Another aspect of the hustle aspect is judging whether to go all out for a fly ball or play more conservatively to prevent an extra base or even injury on an unlikely catch.

This is where Gonzo is getting a lot of criticism since he chooses to play conservatively most of the time--no error when he doesn't reach it and no season ending injury (a la the Womack collision of '02)
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stu
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point mG.

Another aspect of the run all the time school is the ability to relax when at the plate. Hitting a baseball requires a certain amount of calmness and abililty to be relaxed. Sort of like the biathlon where the skiers want to lower their heart rates for shooting. Golf is another example. You don't want to be running up to the and swinging in the normal course.

Byrnes always seemed ancy at the plate to me. He'd get so would up, he would swing at anything. I've seen him swing at pitchers over his head. I don't know if turning it down a notch would help, but it couldn't hurt in this area.

Pete Rose was an exceptional athlete and ball player. He had a sense for the game that allowed him to go all out most of the time and still keep his head in the game. He had an ability to relax at the plate and either think or instinctively know the situation and what to do when hitting. Eric Byrnes is no Pete Rose. Truth be told most ball players are not the equal of the Out King.
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shoewizard
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moviegeekjn wrote:
TAP wrote:
Where do you draw a line on when it's okay to stroll and when a player should hustle?



This is where Gonzo is getting a lot of criticism since he chooses to play conservatively most of the time--no error when he doesn't reach it and no season ending injury (a la the Womack collision of '02)


I was thinking of that very play last night when Easley went down into the LEFT FIELD CORNER to snag that popup, and Gonzo was off in the distance...kind of slowly and warily working his way over
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stu
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me add, I'm glad there are some players like Byrnes. They are fun for me to watch. I wouldn't want a whole team of them, but one or two makes the game interesting if frustrating at times.
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Robert S.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moviegeekjn wrote:
TAP wrote:
Where do you draw a line on when it's okay to stroll and when a player should hustle?


Another aspect of the hustle aspect is judging whether to go all out for a fly ball or play more conservatively to prevent an extra base or even injury on an unlikely catch.

This is where Gonzo is getting a lot of criticism since he chooses to play conservatively most of the time--no error when he doesn't reach it and no season ending injury (a la the Womack collision of '02)


Gonzo runs hardest when he knows he can't catch a ball. He climbs the outfield fence for home runs he couldn't possibly bring back, and sprints for foul balls that are well into the seats. He plays very deep; he won't put himself in a situation where he can get charged with an error.
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Dangerfield
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
Where do you draw a line on when it's okay to stroll and when a player should hustle?


When some guys don't know they aren't hustling, or when they're moping, because they're not hitting. Rookies should have to run everything out for the most part. The guys who aren't hustling generally are also the guys that get caught, because they'll do something something else stupid as well, that magnifies their lack of hustle, or poor stretch. The message boards are great, because other guys will see it/confirm what others are seeing as well.
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