Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: D-Backs Spring Training '07 news
Quote:
With no fewer than five -- and possibly as many as seven -- pitchers competing for the No. 5 spot in the rotation, the Diamondbacks face a difficult task entering spring training.
The trick on how to get each of the candidates the necessary starts and innings in relevant situations might be tougher than actually picking a winner out of the entire bunch.
"It's going to be a battle," pitching coach Bryan Price said. "How do we pass out the innings? Who starts? Who comes in relief? That's going to be the big question."
In order to give all of the candidates a realistically fair shot, the Diamondbacks have been busy trying to schedule an extra series of "B" games and split-squad games. Not that the extra games would be designed strictly for the competition slugging it out for the No. 5 spot.
The way Price sees it, the pitchers who already make up the bulk of the rotation -- Cy Yong Award winner Brandon Webb, Livan Hernandez, Doug Davis and five-time Cy Young winner Randy Johnson -- can make a start or two in "B" games and split-squad contests. That way, the Diamondbacks have a better view of those competing for the No. 5 job by watching them perform in more ideal situations, specifically against the toughest opposition.
But using pitchers like Webb and Johnson in "B" games could be a little controversial, too, at least from the mainstream, ticket-holder's standpoint. Whatever plan the Diamondbacks come up with, it's going to be interesting to see how the competition plays out.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:08 am Post subject:
I actually hate the idea of a spring "competition" for the number 5 spot.
Think about it......they are going to be forced to make a decision based on a very small sample of innings. When I say sample, I am not talking about stat sample sizes. I realize they are evaluating based on how they are actually throwing, and not focusing so much on the results.
But they already know how these guys throw. And they already have the past performances of all these guys to make an informed decision. I realize it's "alluring" to say we are having a "competition" , and go by the concept that the heat of competition will bring out the best. But in this case, it's a bullshit competition. Just what are they really going to learn about these guys that they don't already know from watching a few innings here or there in split squad games?
The better way would have been to go into camp decided in their mind who the 5th starter is, and who is the "runner up".....and as long as those guys are healthy and throwing the ball decently in spring, they just keep their position.
My decision would have been the following:
Go with Edgar. And I would have told him already. And I would tell him he better not show up to camp out of shape, and that he just needs to work with the coaching staff to get himself ready for the start of the season. He has done enough in the minors, and enough in his major league starts towards the end of last year, to prove he deserves the shot now. He is out of options, but doesn't have much trade value, so it's time to find out if he can make it.
So I'd tell him "Get ready for the season Edgar, and don't fuck up. If you come out unprepared and stink in April, we have 6 other guys chomping at the bit to take your job by May 1.......but it's your job now....so just get ready."
I actually hate the idea of a spring "competition" for the number 5 spot.
Think about it......they are going to be forced to make a decision based on a very small sample of innings. When I say sample, I am not talking about stat sample sizes. I realize they are evaluating based on how they are actually throwing, and not focusing so much on the results.
But they already know how these guys throw. And they already have the past performances of all these guys to make an informed decision. I realize it's "alluring" to say we are having a "competition" , and go by the concept that the heat of competition will bring out the best. But in this case, it's a bullshit competition. Just what are they really going to learn about these guys that they don't already know from watching a few innings here or there in split squad games?
The better way would have been to go into camp decided in their mind who the 5th starter is, and who is the "runner up".....and as long as those guys are healthy and throwing the ball decently in spring, they just keep their position.
My decision would have been the following:
Go with Edgar. And I would have told him already. And I would tell him he better not show up to camp out of shape, and that he just needs to work with the coaching staff to get himself ready for the start of the season. He has done enough in the minors, and enough in his major league starts towards the end of last year, to prove he deserves the shot now. He is out of options, but doesn't have much trade value, so it's time to find out if he can make it.
So I'd tell him "Get ready for the season Edgar, and don't fuck up. If you come out unprepared and stink in April, we have 6 other guys chomping at the bit to take your job by May 1.......but it's your job now....so just get ready."
I agree with this (and seem to remember talking about this a couple months ago)
Like 3 weeks of throwing is really going to help you decide..
Go with edgar.. give him 3 starts, and go from there..
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:
stu wrote:
I agree. Remind why Enrique got more ip than Edgar last year.
Because he had a Relatively BABIP in tucson, (.303 vs a PCL League avg of .318) resulting in fewer than would be expected hits allowed in that environment, and that combined with only 2 homeruns allowed resulted in a very low ERA for 60+ innings pitched at the time he was called up.
Edgar had a .319 BABIP and gave up more homers, so his ERA was higher, especially earlier in the season.
Enrique still has options, right? How many years was he on the 40 man roster?
Does Eveland still have options?
If I am not mistaken, Edgar is the only one who has no options....(bsides Cruz of course, but he is going to be a reliever no matter what)
How much do we expect RJ to be pitching in ST? Does this open up a few slots?
If RJ will be giving up some ST starts it would be nice to give innings to 2 hopefull #5's and a few innings to an outside shot candidate.
I think Shoe's plan, in principle, is the best. I'm not sure if I'd automatically give the nod to Edgar or if I'd have he and Eveland fighting it out. But unless there's a ton of slots that opened up, I'd definitely not look at more than 2 prospects.
The others will have time to show their abilities in Tucson and/or as a reliever.
So it was era over a very small sample that formed the basis of the Dbacks' decision to use Enrique rather than Edgar? I do admit that En looked real good in his first few starts and it was easy to like the guy, but management is supposed to be professional about these things.
If you look at thier careers, Edgar has the better potential. Younger, bigger, better k/w and when all thins are considered a better k/ip.
We had this disucssion last year on Edgar and I am almost sure he is now out of options. He has pitched 4 years in the majors so even if his brief stint in 2003 deosn't count, he must have used 3 options.
From my calculations, EN should be out of option. He has played 8 minor league seasons. With 5 seasons before the Rule 5 kicked in (4 Rule 5 drafts since he was signed at 17) he should have been placed on the 40 man in 2004. 2004, 2005 and 2006 for options and you are out. Of course, this is math so don't rely on me. Just trying to get the discussion rolling.
Brinnging up Edgar so early shows why teams need to be careful of putting aplayer on the 40 man before they absolutly have to. Edagr could have another 1 or 2 options had he been handled differently.
Yeah, Edgar I am 100% sure about.....he is out of options.....but I have no idea if Enrique was on the 40 man in 2004 or not.
In fairness to the team, Edgar was giving up ALOT of homeruns in June, (8 in 39.7 innings), and had given up 10 overall in his first 69 innings or so.
I don't get why everyone is so high on Edgar. I understand he is out of options but i would much rather have a competition then just hand him the job. He has proven nothing in his time in the bigs and his time in Tucson has been rocky at best. Edgar, I don't feel, is mature enough yet to play at the bigs. After his defense would screw up or he would give up a big play last year in Tucson he would step off the mound and stare at his teammate who made the bad play. I just think this team would be better served to have a competition.
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Last year in AAA, Edgar had a 107/27 k/w in 138. This is consisitent with his past performances. In the majors last he had about a 2:1 k/w and a era+ of over 100 (113 or something like that). Only 42 ip but still better than En. I can see him being frustrated at being back in the minors last year. Not an excuse for showing up teammates, just some empathy.
Like I said, Edgar is bigger, younger and has better minor league stats than Enrique. I'm not thrilled with Edgar's k/ip and I don't see him as a star. I like Eveland a lot, but I'd like to see him get regular work at the start of the season at least and I even think Nippert has a better upside, just a longer shot to be a number 3 or 4.
Last edited by stu on Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:59 am Post subject:
Espo wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
Yeah, Edgar I am 100% sure about.....he is out of options.....but I have no idea if Enrique was on the 40 man in 2004 or not.
In fairness to the team, Edgar was giving up ALOT of homeruns in June, (8 in 39.7 innings), and had given up 10 overall in his first 69 innings or so.
I don't get why everyone is so high on Edgar. I understand he is out of options but i would much rather have a competition then just hand him the job. He has proven nothing in his time in the bigs and his time in Tucson has been rocky at best. Edgar, I don't feel, is mature enough yet to play at the bigs. After his defense would screw up or he would give up a big play last year in Tucson he would step off the mound and stare at his teammate who made the bad play. I just think this team would be better served to have a competition.
ESPO, I realize you saw some things you didn't like, and I respect that opinion. But a couple of points:
Edgar's major league record is of no consequence. Look closely at his record. He made 2 starts in 2003 at age 20 and 10 starts in 2004 at age 21. and clearly he was not ready and it was a terrible decision to bring him up and leave him there for so long in 2004. He just wasn't supposed to be here.......he was too young.
He only pitched 1/3 of an inning in 2005 in the majors......so basically anything that happened in the majors prior to 2006 has absolutely ZERO value in terms of evaluating him.
What he showed in 2006 in the majors, especially as a starter, was definitely encouraging. Only 42.7 innings, but he did GOOD work in the majors last year. If you want to use any part of the majors work for evaluating him, throw out 2003-2004, and focus on 2006. That may seem like Cherry picking, but for reasons outlined above, it's not really.
As far as his minor league record is concerned, his last two seasons in AAA have overall been very good. Defintely some peaks and valleys, but When you take into account that TEP is a hitters ballpark in a hitters league, his numbers actually standout quite well.
He was very unlucky.....go look up his game log and look at what happened in all his no decisions. It was ridiculous......he would come out of a game tied 2-2 in the 6th or 7th, and then they would go and score 5 runs in the 8th and win.
I agree he has had his maturity issues. And if he does not change those things, it will continue to impact what he can do long term. But Edgar is the absolute classic case of fans giving up on a young player much too soon, before he has been given a REAL chance under the proper circumstances.
Bottom line: He was 23 last year, will only be 24 this year, has put together 2 very very solid seasons in AAA, and had a successful callup last year.
Anyone that wants to give up on him can't see the forest from the trees.
I would make a bet that Edgar is going to put up at least 2-3 years of league average or better ERA in 180-200 innings before he reaches free agency.
I agree that we shouldn't give up on him but we shouldn't hand him the starting job either. Most of his innings last year, if i'm not mistaken, came out of the bullpen. I think that he deserves a chance and has the potential to perform but shouldn't be handed the 5th spot in the rotation. At the very least he should be a long relief guy and not let go.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject:
Espo wrote:
I agree that we shouldn't give up on him but we shouldn't hand him the starting job either. Most of his innings last year, if i'm not mistaken, came out of the bullpen. I think that he deserves a chance and has the potential to perform but shouldn't be handed the 5th spot in the rotation. At the very least he should be a long relief guy and not let go.
Incorrect.
He pitched 33 innings as a starter last year with a 3.00 ERA
He pitched 9.2 innings as a reliever last year with a 8.38 ERA
Edgar does not have ONE dominant pitch, but he has several average or above average pitches with excellent command. He is better off as a starter, using all his pitches, and his command, to set hitters up and work through the order several times, as opposed to coming in with "hot stuff" and blowing through the order one time.
Despite his well documented first inning struggles, Enriques "stuff" makes him profile much better for the role you have in mind.
I agree that we shouldn't give up on him but we shouldn't hand him the starting job either. Most of his innings last year, if i'm not mistaken, came out of the bullpen. I think that he deserves a chance and has the potential to perform but shouldn't be handed the 5th spot in the rotation. At the very least he should be a long relief guy and not let go.
Code:
Pitching Role
I Split G GS GF W L S CG SHO IP ERA H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP
+-+------------+---+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+-----+------+---+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+
as Starter 5 5 0 2 3 0 0 0 33 3.00 32 11 11 6 6 0 21 1
as Reliever 6 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 9.2 8.38 13 9 9 1 3 0 7 2
I Split BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
+-+------------+---+----+----+---+---+--+--+--+--
I Split G GS GF W L S CG SHO IP ERA H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP
+-+------------+---+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+-----+------+---+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+
as Starter 18 18 0 3 7 0 0 0 101 5.88 109 69 66 13 34 0 60 4
as Reliever 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 5.1 1.69 5 2 1 1 0 0 6 0
I Split BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
+-+------------+---+----+----+---+---+--+--+--+---+-
as Starter .277 .339 .434 .773 .297
as Reliever .250 .238 .400 .638 .286
Wow, talk about making a point. I was thinking along the same lines as ESPO but you're arguments are solid [minus the small sample size].
With Eveland having another option left, it would make sense to give Edgar the tentative nod as the 5th spot and make it his job to lose vs his job to win.
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject:
Arizona Diamondbacks in tonight's press release wrote:
Arizona Diamondbacks DIAMONDBACKS SET TO OPEN SPRING TRAINING
PHOENIX, AZ -- The Arizona Diamondbacks pitchers and catchers will report to Tucson, AZ on February 16. The first workout for pitchers and catchers will be on Saturday, February 17, with the remainder of the squad scheduled to report on February 21 and workout the following morning, Thursday, February 22. Along with the 39 players on the 40-man roster that will be in Tucson, the club has announced the invitations of 17 non-roster players. The breakdown of invitees includes eight pitchers, three catchers, three infielders and three outfielders.
The 2007 invitees include:
Pitchers (8 ): Righthanded pitchers Jeff Bajenaru, Adam Bass, D.J. Carrasco, Matt Elliott, Chad Harville and Micah Owings. Lefthanded pitchers Bill Murphy and Greg Smith.
Catchers (3): Wilkin Castillo, Josh Ford and Mark Johnson.
Infielders (3): Chris Carter, Augie Ojeda and Mark Reynolds.
Outfielders (3): Dee Brown, Rich Thompson and Justin Upton.
The Diamondbacks also have announced that in addition to the Major League and Minor League coaching staffs, that Mel Stottlemyre, Sr. will join the club in Tucson as a special instructor, along with former Diamondbacks player and coach Jay Bell, former player and current broadcaster Matt Williams and former Major League slugger Will Clark. Stottlemyre, Sr. spent 26 seasons as a Major League coach, with his last 11 coming as the pitching coach with the New York Yankees. He played 11 seasons in the big leagues, all with Yankees, compiling a 164-139 record with a 2.97 ERA in 360 games. Bell will make his first trip to Tucson as a special instructor, while Williams and Clark each make their third straight appearance.
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject:
Mel Stottlemyre, Sr. will join the club in Tucson as a special instructor, along with former Diamondbacks player and coach Jay Bell, former player and current broadcaster Matt Williams and former Major League slugger Will Clark.
Will the Thrill is on Spike's Pros vs Joes tonight and it looks like he's packed on about 70 pounds of solid adipose since the end of his playing days.
Triple play: Three questions that need answers
1. Who's No. 5?
Edgar and Enrique Gonzalez will battle along with Eveland, Nippert and Juan Cruz for the final spot in the rotation. Edgar Gonzalez is out of options and if he doesn't make the team, the organization will likely try to trade him.
2. How many pitchers will be on the Opening Day roster?
Whether the D-backs carry 11 or 12 pitchers affects the battle for the final position player spot or two. With four starters expected to pitch 200 innings each, 12 pitchers may be a luxury. On the other hand, if Johnson isn't ready to go until the season's second week, that could change Arizona's thinking.
3. Who's batting where?
The team was built with the idea that the Nos. 1-8 hitters will work the count and put pressure on the other team's pitchers. The team lacks a true leadoff or cleanup hitter, so manager Bob Melvin will have to do some juggling during the spring to find just the right combination.
The bottom line
With four of the five rotation spots spoken for and the everyday lineup pretty well set, most of the competition will center around the fifth starter and the final bullpen and bench spots.
If Edgar is out of options, I would think he should be the fifth starter at least until mid-season (unless he really bombs). My mind is not what it used to be, but isn't Webb the only home grown pitcher that has stuck with the Dbacks for more than a full season as a SP? Edgar is only 24 (Feb 23rd) and needs more time to prove himself. Unfortunately we don't have any Cains or Billingsleys who are locks as top major league SP's. It will take our young SP's longer to prove themselves in the bigs.
Spring's 10 burning questions
By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports
February 14, 2007
Quote:
5. Who are this year's Detroit Tigers?
The Arizona Diamondbacks.
They've got good pitching (Cy Young winner Brandon Webb and veterans Livan Hernandez and Doug Davis), an old guy to play the Kenny Rogers role (Randy Johnson, once he returns in April from back surgery), a future MVP candidate at shortstop (Stephen Drew), an exciting young center fielder (Chris Young) and a division that's ripe as a month-old strawberry.
Of course, all of that could be wrecked by a bullpen that rests somewhere between shaky and awful. Jose Valverde has shown he's not the answer at closer, yet he'll start spring with the role. Tony Pena has the fastball-slider combination, if not the mettle quite yet.
If the Diamondbacks find that they're too good for a mediocre bullpen, they've got the biggest cache of prospects in the National League and could easily land a Cordero or perhaps Akinori Otsuka from the Texas Rangers.
link
Quote:
a future MVP candidate at shortstop (Stephen Drew),
The Wolf is getting some love!!!
http://www.queticofoundation.org/gallery/wolf.jpg
If the Diamondbacks find that they're too good for a mediocre bullpen, they've got the biggest cache of prospects in the National League and could easily land a Cordero or perhaps Akinori Otsuka from the Texas Rangers.
Otsuka is an excellent reliever...
If Edgar claims the last spot in the rotation, do you deal Nippert for Otsuka?
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