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 Post subject: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:14 am 
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Jim has an article detailing minor league development staff for 2017

HERE

This was my comment:

I would have liked to see more new blood especially on the pitching side of things.

The only new pitching coach is Shane Loux in Missoula, and all the pitching side coordinators are organization holdovers too.

fact is pitcher development has been an issue for this organization and they need new voices and new methods. I know thats harsh, it’s not comfortable saying this, because in effect it’s the same as wanting some people to lose their jobs. To be honest, I have no clue who might be good at their jobs and who isn’t. But collectively they have not gotten much in the way of results.

Perhaps just too much for a new GM to take on, revamping the minor league player development system in his first year. I hope Hazen and his team are looking very hard at ways to evaluate their player development personnel and have clear goals and guidelines established.

It needs to improve. I don’t think there is much debate on this point, right ?


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 Post subject: Re: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:07 am 
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Do we know if the lack of results is primarily on the coaching staffs in the Minors or more of what has been the organizational philosophy over the years? I'm sure there is some blame for both, but I wonder if the organizational philosophy hasn't been the biggest hurdle to more positive results.


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 Post subject: Re: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:45 am 
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Maybe some combination of both but what has been the philosophy the last 10 years ?


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 Post subject: Re: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:32 am 
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shoewizard wrote:
Maybe some combination of both but what has been the philosophy the last 10 years ?


We've probably had about 10 different philosophies those last 10 years.

If I had to guess, I think a lot of it might be draft-related. I think we've actually done well developing hitters but our track record with pitchers has been terrible. If you look at many of the pitchers we've draft, especially lately, they seem to be much more reliever-types than starter-types.

I also think there has been some recent optimism for our pitchers. Bradley does look dominant in stretches. We traded for Corbin but showed flashes of being really good. Miley was a solid development from us. Ray is starting to blossom before our eyes. Obviously, we need more and more, but I don't think hiring a new staff necessarily fixes anything.

Don't change for the sake of change; target root causes and fix those.


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 Post subject: Re: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:27 am 
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Moranall wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
Maybe some combination of both but what has been the philosophy the last 10 years ?


We've probably had about 10 different philosophies those last 10 years.

If I had to guess, I think a lot of it might be draft-related. I think we've actually done well developing hitters but our track record with pitchers has been terrible. If you look at many of the pitchers we've draft, especially lately, they seem to be much more reliever-types than starter-types.

I also think there has been some recent optimism for our pitchers. Bradley does look dominant in stretches. We traded for Corbin but showed flashes of being really good. Miley was a solid development from us. Ray is starting to blossom before our eyes. Obviously, we need more and more, but I don't think hiring a new staff necessarily fixes anything.

Don't change for the sake of change; target root causes and fix those.


Max Scherzer says hello. The organization was not able to help him tap into his talents , and it was when he went to Detroit and and later after they sent him back down to Minors and then he came back a PITCHER instead of just a thrower that he blossomed into a star.

Trevor Bauer has already put up 5.8 WAR since leaving here. And he's clearly improving, having just posted a 3 WAR season in 2016. He will be 26 next season and Cleveland still has 4 years of control before he is a FA.

So those are two good draft picks that the team was not able to develop but other teams were.

You've seen the list of All Time D Backs Pitching WAR leaders and Miley tops the charts of homegrown talents production for Arizona since Brandon Webb, at only 8+ WAR, Collmenter is next at 7+ WAR.

This is not good enough.

The team's player development process was also in question with the likes of Jarrod Parker and Tyler Skaggs, but injury precluded long term evaluation of the "before and after" effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:35 am 
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shoewizard wrote:
Max Scherzer says hello. The organization was not able to help him tap into his talents , and it was when he went to Detroit and and later after they sent him back down to Minors and then he came back a PITCHER instead of just a thrower that he blossomed into a star.

Trevor Bauer has already put up 5.8 WAR since leaving here. And he's clearly improving, having just posted a 3 WAR season in 2016. He will be 26 next season and Cleveland still has 4 years of control before he is a FA.

So those are two good draft picks that the team was not able to develop but other teams were.

You've seen the list of All Time D Backs Pitching WAR leaders and Miley tops the charts of homegrown talents production for Arizona since Brandon Webb, at only 8+ WAR, Collmenter is next at 7+ WAR.

This is not good enough.

The team's player development process was also in question with the likes of Jarrod Parker and Tyler Skaggs, but injury precluded long term evaluation of the "before and after" effects.


I don't understand how Scherzer is a good example of this. In his first full season in AZ (2009), he posted a 3.82 xFIP with a 23.5% K% and 8.5% BB%. By this point, I'd say we had already done a pretty damn good job of developing him. It wasn't until his third year in Detroit (2012) that his K%-BB% was better than 2009, which primarily came from a massive surge with a 29.4% K%. Also, aside from a 15 inning minor-league stint in May 2010 (where his FB velo was down 2 MPH from 2009), I don't see a minor league stint that caused Scherzer to blossom. We traded Scherzer early in his development but I imagine this success was going to happen no matter where he was; he was too talented.

And I don't understand why you're counting Trevor Bauer. Bauer only threw 16 innings with AZ and was very good in the minors; however, we traded him early and eventually netted Robbie Ray. The Nationals and Tigers couldn't develop Ray; now he's in AZ and possibly on the verge on developing into an ace.
Again, I do think our handling of certain elements of Bauer was pretty bad, but he was already doing very well in the minors when we traded him. Ray has far more upside at this point (and one more year of team control). I'm honestly fairly disappointed with how Bauer has turned out; While getting about 6 WAR in 3+ seasons is nice, I was expecting a lot more considering we drafted him #7 overall and the amount of hype around his talent. His K% is right around league average, he walks too many people, and has yet to post an ERA- under 100. He looks to be more like a Wade Miley type than a #1/#2.

But beyond that, yes, I agree that our ability to develop pitchers has been horrific. I heard, with regards to the Parker/Skaggs development process, that we were insistent on shortening both of their strides for some reason - and I've heard it with some of our other pitchers too. This strikes me as a philosophy type of thing, more than anything, which has frequently been subject to change in our team's history. But changing the personnel doesn't necessary fix the problem. It's like firing a head coach - chances are it won't really change that much - but it makes the fans feel better. Maybe I'm trusting Hazen too much, but let's see what philosophy we try to drive.


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 Post subject: Re: Minor League Development Staff
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Moranall wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
Max Scherzer says hello. The organization was not able to help him tap into his talents , and it was when he went to Detroit and and later after they sent him back down to Minors and then he came back a PITCHER instead of just a thrower that he blossomed into a star.

Trevor Bauer has already put up 5.8 WAR since leaving here. And he's clearly improving, having just posted a 3 WAR season in 2016. He will be 26 next season and Cleveland still has 4 years of control before he is a FA.

So those are two good draft picks that the team was not able to develop but other teams were.

You've seen the list of All Time D Backs Pitching WAR leaders and Miley tops the charts of homegrown talents production for Arizona since Brandon Webb, at only 8+ WAR, Collmenter is next at 7+ WAR.

This is not good enough.

The team's player development process was also in question with the likes of Jarrod Parker and Tyler Skaggs, but injury precluded long term evaluation of the "before and after" effects.


I don't understand how Scherzer is a good example of this. In his first full season in AZ (2009), he posted a 3.82 xFIP with a 23.5% K% and 8.5% BB%. By this point, I'd say we had already done a pretty damn good job of developing him. It wasn't until his third year in Detroit (2012) that his K%-BB% was better than 2009, which primarily came from a massive surge with a 29.4% K%. Also, aside from a 15 inning minor-league stint in May 2010 (where his FB velo was down 2 MPH from 2009), I don't see a minor league stint that caused Scherzer to blossom. We traded Scherzer early in his development but I imagine this success was going to happen no matter where he was; he was too talented.

And I don't understand why you're counting Trevor Bauer. Bauer only threw 16 innings with AZ and was very good in the minors; however, we traded him early and eventually netted Robbie Ray. The Nationals and Tigers couldn't develop Ray; now he's in AZ and possibly on the verge on developing into an ace.
Again, I do think our handling of certain elements of Bauer was pretty bad, but he was already doing very well in the minors when we traded him. Ray has far more upside at this point (and one more year of team control). I'm honestly fairly disappointed with how Bauer has turned out; While getting about 6 WAR in 3+ seasons is nice, I was expecting a lot more considering we drafted him #7 overall and the amount of hype around his talent. His K% is right around league average, he walks too many people, and has yet to post an ERA- under 100. He looks to be more like a Wade Miley type than a #1/#2.

But beyond that, yes, I agree that our ability to develop pitchers has been horrific. I heard, with regards to the Parker/Skaggs development process, that we were insistent on shortening both of their strides for some reason - and I've heard it with some of our other pitchers too. This strikes me as a philosophy type of thing, more than anything, which has frequently been subject to change in our team's history. But changing the personnel doesn't necessary fix the problem. It's like firing a head coach - chances are it won't really change that much - but it makes the fans feel better. Maybe I'm trusting Hazen too much, but let's see what philosophy we try to drive.


Had a great rebuttal structured in my mind, and was about to put pen to paper, but my grandsons just came over, and I have to leave for a doctors appointment in a half hour, so I'll deal with you later. 8-)

(Just kidding......some interesting info for you about Max though)


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