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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:42 am 
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dbackfanron wrote:
Although it won't happen, I've argued that the Gila River Indian Reservation at the SW corner of I-10 and Loop 202 San Tan/South Mountain Freeway would be the best location for accessibility for the most fans, including Casa Grande, Maricopa, and even Tucson for weekend games. The amenities you speak of around Chase would undoubtedly grow up around a new ballpark in the EV.

One thing that has changed in the last twenty years or so is the school calendar. Kids are in school for much of the baseball season. For that reason, accessibility is paramount. While Chase may not be the hardest ballpark to get to, it's by no means easy with the downtown one-way streets. Parking is expensive, primarily because downtown real estate is more expensive and parking lots are not the best use for the land downtown.


The problem with this is you just eliminated a lot of people in Central Phx and probably all of the West Valley who currently attend regularly. I'm just not sure how that is a smart solution, even though it's helpful to people that live in Gilbert, Chandler, Maricopa and QC. I'd maybe consider something around Talking stick since it's still somewhat accessible to Central/ North Phx & PV, but you still nix the west valley, which again will be your hub of population growth over the next 20-30 years.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:49 am 
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shoewizard wrote:
We've won more games, more divisions, and made playoffs more often than the Rockies.

Our tickets are cheaper than the Rockies. Forbes Link


They out draw us by 10,000.

SOME of this is on Arizona fans. I could go one by one through your list and dispute a couple of other points, but not all of what you said is wrong either. You make some good points.

But there is still no way to completely absolve Arizona fans for the fact that the Rockies have out drawn the D Backs every year since 2006, and the Rockies were only SLIGHTLY behind the D Backs in 2003-2004-2005. You could look it up. ;)

I don't think fans have any sort of moral culpability from which they need to be absolved. The D-backs are a luxury entertainment product, not friends or family. The fact that the Rockies receive better support seems like the kind of thing the D-backs could investigate. Is it just structural differences between Denver and Phoenix, or are the Rockies doing a better job to market to their potential customers and/or provide a more compelling ballpark experience?

Fans have seen the D-backs make a playoff appearance in two other years since the current ownership group seized control and both times they turned into a pumpkin the next season. Fans have seen the Coyotes make every attempt to leave Glendale and now they know the D-backs are trying to do the same. It's not hard to see why people would adopt a wait-and-see approach. Are fans supposed to be excited that they followed up an NLDS sweep with a public refusal to commit to a meaningful payroll increase in 2018? Should fans be happy that the D-backs signed a huge television contract and still have a bottom-third payroll?

I don't think it's a great idea to blame consumers for their failure to buy your product, particularly when your product is non-essential, nowhere near best-of-breed, and has numerous alternatives.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:02 pm 
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dbackfanron wrote:
Although it won't happen, I've argued that the Gila River Indian Reservation at the SW corner of I-10 and Loop 202 San Tan/South Mountain Freeway would be the best location for accessibility for the most fans, including Casa Grande, Maricopa, and even Tucson for weekend games.

That's barely a decent location for a spring training site, let alone an MLB stadium. There are almost twice as many jobs and average home values are 50% higher within 5 miles of the Talking Stick location compared to the I-10/202 interchange.

dbackfanron wrote:
The amenities you speak of around Chase would undoubtedly grow up around a new ballpark in the EV.

False. Downtown and the Scottsdale Airport area are the two largest employment centers in Arizona. All the amenities that come with that won't magically follow a ballpark.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:21 pm 
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You and I have discussed this into the ground. So agree to disagree. :) I agree that it WILL be built on Salt River.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:33 pm 
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I think the answer is a giant combination of everyone's posts:

-The fans are just more fairweather. Everyone in AZ is from somewhere else. Hell, my family and I moved out in the late '80s and I was a Mets fan. Other cities don't have quite as extreme of a fairweather fan issue.

-The socioeconomic side of this, as Gary cited, matters.

-I agree with the weather sentiment, too. It just sucks to go outside in Phoenix for about 4 of the baseball season's 6 months. Mother Nature offers little incentive to head to the air-conditioned hangar known as Chase to watch a (usually bad/mediocre) team play.

-I think the bulk of the blame does fall on the team, however. Between the constant uniform changes (the Rockies, by comparison, have had ZERO uniform or color changes) and the inability to put a consistently good product on the field -- thanks in large part to literal league-worst front offices for a span of 2007-2016 -- it's not going to organically grow a fanbase. Particularly when a bunch of those fans moved from somewhere else and root(ed) for another team.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Ryan wrote:
I think the answer is a giant combination of everyone's posts:

-The fans are just more fairweather. Everyone in AZ is from somewhere else. Hell, my family and I moved out in the late '80s and I was a Mets fan. Other cities don't have quite as extreme of a fairweather fan issue.

-I agree with the weather sentiment, too. It just sucks to go outside in Phoenix for about 4 of the baseball season's 6 months. Mother Nature offers little incentive to head to the air-conditioned hangar known as Chase to watch a (usually bad/mediocre) team play.


I agree with all that you said, but I specifically want to add on a bit in these things. I am from CT and moved here in 1994. My biological dad's side is all Yankees fans, my mom grew up outside of LA and watched the late 70's Dodgers. She has been to Dodger Stadium probably more times that I have been to Chase (again, in the 70's). I am 32, but to be completely honest, I didn't give two shits about baseball until Andy Benes and company started playing in 1998. I l
I live in Marana. The last thing I want to do is take a bus to the Foothills Mall, wait for the fan express to board, then go to Phoenix to watch a Dbacks game and then, since it is 10:30-11 walk the 2 miles to my apartment at night in June. (I know, that is more of a personal problem)

Ok, that really seemed more pointless banter than when I started, but whatever. :lol: :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Justin wrote:
Ryan wrote:
I think the answer is a giant combination of everyone's posts:

-The fans are just more fairweather. Everyone in AZ is from somewhere else. Hell, my family and I moved out in the late '80s and I was a Mets fan. Other cities don't have quite as extreme of a fairweather fan issue.

-I agree with the weather sentiment, too. It just sucks to go outside in Phoenix for about 4 of the baseball season's 6 months. Mother Nature offers little incentive to head to the air-conditioned hangar known as Chase to watch a (usually bad/mediocre) team play.


I agree with all that you said, but I specifically want to add on a bit in these things. I am from CT and moved here in 1994. My biological dad's side is all Yankees fans, my mom grew up outside of LA and watched the late 70's Dodgers. She has been to Dodger Stadium probably more times that I have been to Chase (again, in the 70's). I am 32, but to be completely honest, I didn't give two shits about baseball until Andy Benes and company started playing in 1998. I l
I live in Marana. The last thing I want to do is take a bus to the Foothills Mall, wait for the fan express to board, then go to Phoenix to watch a Dbacks game and then, since it is 10:30-11 walk the 2 miles to my apartment at night in June. (I know, that is more of a personal problem)

Ok, that really seemed more pointless banter than when I started, but whatever. :lol: :oops:


You are part of the reason I think I-10 and the 202 South Mountain Freeway could be feasible, or even the 202 San Tan at McClintock or Dobson (just south of the Mall on reservation land). It's easier to travel there for people in Maricopa, Casa Grande, and even North East Tucson. ST and AAA ball was a bust in Tucson, but that is no reason to forget about those people.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:14 am 
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Maricopa and Casa Grande don’t even have 100k people combined, and the household incomes are lower than the state average. Those communities shouldn’t even be a consideration in the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:16 am 
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And I don’t recall hearing a single person in Tucson say if the ballpark was on south side of PHX they’d go to more games, but driving that extra 20 minutes to downtown is just too much.

The Club is already at the best location for accessibility to the most fans. Any move, even to the I-10/202 interchange, is a negative in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:59 am 
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dbackfanron wrote:
ST and AAA ball was a bust in Tucson, but that is no reason to forget about those people.

False again. The dbax drew more in Tucson than the Marlins ever attracted in FLA, and only left because ownership conspired to violate lease terms for their publicly funded facility; and AAA somehow managed to survive for 40yrs and only left when a publicly funded riverfront ballpark and lucrative downtown development opportunity near casinos were available.

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Last edited by dirtygary on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:40 am 
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I know about the dispute with ownership over the condition of the field. I was there sitting two rows behind the Dbacks people (as I recall DiPoto, Gebhard, and Woodfork) and Zucker and his wife during somewhat prolonged and heated discussions. I went to several Sidewinders games over the course of two seasons, and while I wouldn't say the attendance was sparse, it certainly didn't look like overwhelming support.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Strebor wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
We've won more games, more divisions, and made playoffs more often than the Rockies.

Our tickets are cheaper than the Rockies. Forbes Link


They out draw us by 10,000.

SOME of this is on Arizona fans. I could go one by one through your list and dispute a couple of other points, but not all of what you said is wrong either. You make some good points.

But there is still no way to completely absolve Arizona fans for the fact that the Rockies have out drawn the D Backs every year since 2006, and the Rockies were only SLIGHTLY behind the D Backs in 2003-2004-2005. You could look it up. ;)

I don't think fans have any sort of moral culpability from which they need to be absolved. The D-backs are a luxury entertainment product, not friends or family. The fact that the Rockies receive better support seems like the kind of thing the D-backs could investigate. Is it just structural differences between Denver and Phoenix, or are the Rockies doing a better job to market to their potential customers and/or provide a more compelling ballpark experience?

Fans have seen the D-backs make a playoff appearance in two other years since the current ownership group seized control and both times they turned into a pumpkin the next season. Fans have seen the Coyotes make every attempt to leave Glendale and now they know the D-backs are trying to do the same. It's not hard to see why people would adopt a wait-and-see approach. Are fans supposed to be excited that they followed up an NLDS sweep with a public refusal to commit to a meaningful payroll increase in 2018? Should fans be happy that the D-backs signed a huge television contract and still have a bottom-third payroll?

I don't think it's a great idea to blame consumers for their failure to buy your product, particularly when your product is non-essential, nowhere near best-of-breed, and has numerous alternatives.


Moral culpability ?

I really wasnt thinking of this in terms of morality, although if anything I wrote gave that impression, I certainly didn't mean it to.

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Last edited by shoewizard on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:03 am 
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http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 762422001/

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 709119001/


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:03 am 
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Yep. Just like Shoe said, there will be a stadium on the 101 in the East Valley in the next 5yrs. One of the benefits of the SRF location will be a relatively equal distribution of ingress/egress to the north and south on the 101, with the large arterials serving as connectors to the immediate west. Nothing close to the accessible freeway and light rail network downtown that allows patrons to disburse in every direction, but SRF is among the better suburban/periphery locations for that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:44 am 
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dirtygary wrote:
Yep. Just like Shoe said, there will be a stadium on the 101 in the East Valley in the next 5yrs. One of the benefits of the SRF location will be a relatively equal distribution of ingress/egress to the north and south on the 101, with the large arterials serving as connectors to the immediate west. Nothing close to the accessible freeway and light rail network downtown that allows patrons to disburse in every direction, but SRF is among the better suburban/periphery locations for that.


Absolutely no doubt it will be built on SR Reservation. Frankly, I don't think GRIC wants the stadium on their land even if asked. The message they sent when nixing the idea of the South Mountain Freeway on their land was a strong message about their feelings for any kind of major development on tribal land. My only disagreement is that SR may not be the best location, availability not considered. Just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:32 pm 
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dbackfanron wrote:
Frankly, I don't think GRIC wants the stadium on their land even if asked. The message they sent when nixing the idea of the South Mountain Freeway on their land was a strong message about their feelings for any kind of major development on tribal land.

I dunno, that casino and huge outlet mall are rather major developments. Just because they aren't interested in ceding their finite amount of land and incurring great disruption to serve other entity's interests does not mean they're against their own economic interests. Their community already has more than adequate access to the freeway network and that South Mountain freeway would be a far greater benefit to others than it would be to them. But they'd still take any/every opportunity to host events that are available, and a spring training facility would be a smashing success for them.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:51 pm 
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I think they were adamant about access to Ahwatukee and Pecos Road at 40th St. several years ago, perhaps knowing that there would be access to the new freeway in the future. You stoked my memory in that I believe there is to be some commercial development at 40th St. just south of the new freeway/Pecos Rd.. I seem to recall there was some question about Councilman DeCiccio having some connection to that development while serving on the Council and making decisions about the 40th St. access to Pecos Road. No wrongdoing in connection with that was ever found/proven.

I'm not sure I would say they have a "finite" amount of land. There reservation is rather large. Maybe they're holding out for bigger and better things as far as development goes. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:40 pm 
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dbackfanron wrote:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler/2017/10/16/chandler-2-other-arizona-cities-rank-top-10-places-buy-family-home/762422001/

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 709119001/


This is all true. However, there isn't much land left for development in that part of the Valley. In a normal housing market, Gilbert and Chandler will account for about 15% of the new home starts, max, while the West Valley will account for over 50%. The West Valley, Buckeye, by comparison, has the largest footprint of any city in the state. It would be incredibly stupid, from a forward looking standpoint, to exclude that part of the Valley with a Gilbert/Chandler based facility. This location would also kill Central Phx, north Phx, and PV residents. IT would be utterly ridiculous to build a stadium that houses 81 events per year in that corner of the Valley.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:17 pm 
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98dback wrote:
dbackfanron wrote:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler/2017/10/16/chandler-2-other-arizona-cities-rank-top-10-places-buy-family-home/762422001/

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 709119001/


This is all true. However, there isn't much land left for development in that part of the Valley. In a normal housing market, Gilbert and Chandler will account for about 15% of the new home starts, max, while the West Valley will account for over 50%. The West Valley, Buckeye, by comparison, has the largest footprint of any city in the state. It would be incredibly stupid, from a forward looking standpoint, to exclude that part of the Valley with a Gilbert/Chandler based facility. This location would also kill Central Phx, north Phx, and PV residents. IT would be utterly ridiculous to build a stadium that houses 81 events per year in that corner of the Valley.


Actually, there is still a lot of land for housing in Chandler and Gilbert, not to mention Queen Creek, East Mesa to Apache Junction, not to mention there are those that envision the I-10 corridor to Tucson being filled in during the coming decades along with possible high speed rail connecting the Arizona's two largest cities. The problem with ALL future development in Arizona will be water. Arizona could be on the verge (10-20 yrs) of losing it's Colorado River water rights as the depth of Lake Meade continues to drop. The CAP Canal could become a dried up ditch.

Regardless of where a new stadium is built, some area(s) of the Valley will get the short end of the stick. That's just a fact of life. For now it probably has more to do with household incomes being higher in the EV.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chase experience and attendance
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:27 pm 
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dbackfanron wrote:
98dback wrote:
dbackfanron wrote:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler/2017/10/16/chandler-2-other-arizona-cities-rank-top-10-places-buy-family-home/762422001/

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 709119001/


This is all true. However, there isn't much land left for development in that part of the Valley. In a normal housing market, Gilbert and Chandler will account for about 15% of the new home starts, max, while the West Valley will account for over 50%. The West Valley, Buckeye, by comparison, has the largest footprint of any city in the state. It would be incredibly stupid, from a forward looking standpoint, to exclude that part of the Valley with a Gilbert/Chandler based facility. This location would also kill Central Phx, north Phx, and PV residents. IT would be utterly ridiculous to build a stadium that houses 81 events per year in that corner of the Valley.


Actually, there is still a lot of land for housing in Chandler and Gilbert, not to mention Queen Creek, East Mesa to Apache Junction, not to mention there are those that envision the I-10 corridor to Tucson being filled in during the coming decades along with possible high speed rail connecting the Arizona's two largest cities. The problem with ALL future development in Arizona will be water. Arizona could be on the verge (10-20 yrs) of losing it's Colorado River water rights as the depth of Lake Meade continues to drop. The CAP Canal could become a dried up ditch.

Regardless of where a new stadium is built, some area(s) of the Valley will get the short end of the stick. That's just a fact of life. For now it probably has more to do with household incomes being higher in the EV.


1) there's not a lot of land left in Gilbert and Chandler.
2) there's not enough buyers to support the home prices at any volume north of about 5K permits per year in that submarket.

The affordability and land mass are in the West Valley. Lower income, but huge volume and people that will attend games. Maybe not season ticket holders, but go to Dodger Stadium and look at all of the blue collar fans. That is what fills up the upper deck and provides additional concession and parking revenue. The lower bowl is fine. It's the affordable buyer we need more of.


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