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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:26 am 
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shoewizard wrote:
Excellent trade ideas, M

Just one point,

Tomas gets 55.5 M over the next 4 years.

9.5, 13.5, 15.5, 17

Can roughly break even for these 4 years if he posts 6 WAR total


He has a signing bonus of $3.5 million for this year and next year. To my understanding, these were paid upfront and don't count towards his salary for the next 4 years?

BBREF doesn't list his signing bonuses but MLBTR and Sportrac do. I'm honestly not sure how that's handled in the MLB but my assumption is that his $14 million signing bonus was paid in year 1.

Edit: Look here


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:57 am 
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According to Cot's the $14M signing bonus is "paid 2015-18".


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:47 am 
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dbackfanron wrote:
According to Cot's the $14M signing bonus is "paid 2015-18".


bonuses are typically prorated over the life of the contract.

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It's time for ownership to stop pretending they can't afford substantial payroll increases from recent levels. They absolutely can
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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:15 pm 
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shoewizard wrote:
dbackfanron wrote:
According to Cot's the $14M signing bonus is "paid 2015-18".


bonuses are typically prorated over the life of the contract.


That doesn't make sense to me. What's the point of a signing bonus vs regular salary then? Signing bonuses for drafted players are paid upfront. Kiley McDaniel's tweet suggests that Tomas's bonus was paid up fron .

In the NFL, signing bonuses are widely used because you pay a lot of money up-front and spread the "cap hit" across several years (e.g. so even though you spent $20 million in 20XX, it only costs you $4 million in cap space each of the next 6 years).

In the MLB there is no salary cap, so I see no real difference between "signing bonus" and "salary" unless the signing bonus is paid up front (kind of like the opposite of deferred money).

So Kiley McDaniel says the $14 million was paid upfront. Buster Olney's article says we still owe $56 million (which means it wasn't paid upfront). We're only arguing about $7 million, or less than 1 win, but at this point, I just want to understand what "signing bonus" actually means in the MLB.

Edit: Looking deeper, I found that the signing bonus is split out over the life of the contract in terms of calculating AAV for luxury tax purposes, but it still seems to imply the signing bonus is paid out in full at the beginning of the first year of the contract.

Sportrac shows it being paid out in 2014: Here


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:19 pm 
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It may not make sense, and you may be looking at sites that are not clear on how to show it, but thats the way it's done.

We were told this face to face by D Backs CEO at the time Jeff Moorad back in 2005, and I subsequently learned this to also be true when I worked for the team from 2007-2010

Some teams may do it slightly differently, but thats essentially it.

EDIT: I should also add from player's perspective obviously the tax liability is going to be higher if they take the bonus all in one payment up front.

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It's time for ownership to stop pretending they can't afford substantial payroll increases from recent levels. They absolutely can
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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:38 pm 
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shoewizard wrote:
It may not make sense, and you may be looking at sites that are not clear on how to show it, but thats the way it's done.

We were told this face to face by D Backs CEO at the time Jeff Moorad back in 2005, and I subsequently learned this to also be true when I worked for the team from 2007-2010

Some teams may do it slightly differently, but thats essentially it.

EDIT: I should also add from player's perspective obviously the tax liability is going to be higher if they take the bonus all in one payment up front.


I'll trust you, since you've actually worked in the industry (I haven't). It just seems rather... pointless? It seems like there's no difference between a signing bonus or salary to me. I just want to understand what it actually means.


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:35 pm 
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I like checking the front office roster periodically, and there's some nice new titles that I really like the sound of:

Cody Callahan, Mathematical Modeler, Baseball Analytics
Max Glick, Quantitative Researcher, Baseball Analytics

plus a handful of general assistants to the GM and baseball operations that I'd assume are probably involved in some of that? Either way, that's a good start for the analytics team.

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:39 pm 
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those aren't new, were there long ago at least a year if not more.

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:58 pm 
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were they? well then forget ANYTHING that I say!

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:00 pm 
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ha ha....sorry....don't mean to be a dick.

just kinda happens. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:05 pm 
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I didn't even think a thing of it other than calling myself a big fat dummy for getting excited over nothing!

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:38 pm 
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shoewizard wrote:
It may not make sense, and you may be looking at sites that are not clear on how to show it, but thats the way it's done.

We were told this face to face by D Backs CEO at the time Jeff Moorad back in 2005, and I subsequently learned this to also be true when I worked for the team from 2007-2010

Some teams may do it slightly differently, but thats essentially it.

EDIT: I should also add from player's perspective obviously the tax liability is going to be higher if they take the bonus all in one payment up front.

Two things:
Could it be that the player gets the money, but it is counted against team payroll over the like of the contract? Like deferred salary in reverse?

Since most of these contracts are far above the highest marginal tax rate threshold the total would be the same paid now or over the life of the contract, unless tax rates change during that period. Much better to take it now than later.

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:24 pm 
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Well if the luxury tax threshold is going up, my first instinct is that this may cause more disparity between the teams constantly raising payroll/spending and teams like ours where they keep the checkbooks closed. I hope some measured success keeps us from getting dusted on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:11 am 
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wedge wrote:
Well if the luxury tax threshold is going up, my first instinct is that this may cause more disparity between the teams constantly raising payroll/spending and teams like ours where they keep the checkbooks closed. I hope some measured success keeps us from getting dusted on this.

It's increasing low and slow. I don't think it moves the needle to any meaningful degree over the next five years.


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:12 am 
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They really need a minimum cap for teams that get tax monies. Force these rich tight SOB owners to open up their wallets. No reason any team in MLB should have a payroll under $125 million.

Did I see somewhere A's are exempt from getting tax monies? Why?

Need to read up more on that situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:14 am 
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The Shadow wrote:
They really need a minimum cap for teams that get tax monies. Force these rich tight SOB owners to open up their wallets. No reason any team in MLB should have a payroll under $125 million.

Did I see somewhere A's are exempt from getting tax monies? Why?

Need to read up more on that situation.


Nothing really comes out and says it other than the A's have been expecting this for a while. It seems that it mostly boils down to the fact that they haven't done much if any capital upgrades to their stadium and have grown complacent in securing a new ballpark and low spending on their roster, and now that Lew's not running things, they may start being more proactive on both fronts. Supposedly the thinking is that this will motivate them to find a new stadium ASAP.

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:41 pm 
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ReTired wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
It may not make sense, and you may be looking at sites that are not clear on how to show it, but thats the way it's done.

We were told this face to face by D Backs CEO at the time Jeff Moorad back in 2005, and I subsequently learned this to also be true when I worked for the team from 2007-2010

Some teams may do it slightly differently, but thats essentially it.

EDIT: I should also add from player's perspective obviously the tax liability is going to be higher if they take the bonus all in one payment up front.

Two things:
Could it be that the player gets the money, but it is counted against team payroll over the like of the contract? Like deferred salary in reverse?

Since most of these contracts are far above the highest marginal tax rate threshold the total would be the same paid now or over the life of the contract, unless tax rates change during that period. Much better to take it now than later.


Example

Quote:
It’s conceivable the activity on Greinke could increase at the winter meetings, but the D-backs owe him $172.5 million over the next five seasons, including $3 million installments of his signing bonus every May 31.

_________________
It's time for ownership to stop pretending they can't afford substantial payroll increases from recent levels. They absolutely can
viewtopic.php?p=244425#p244425


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:29 pm 
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Posts: 1513
shoewizard wrote:
ReTired wrote:
shoewizard wrote:
It may not make sense, and you may be looking at sites that are not clear on how to show it, but thats the way it's done.

We were told this face to face by D Backs CEO at the time Jeff Moorad back in 2005, and I subsequently learned this to also be true when I worked for the team from 2007-2010

Some teams may do it slightly differently, but thats essentially it.

EDIT: I should also add from player's perspective obviously the tax liability is going to be higher if they take the bonus all in one payment up front.

Two things:
Could it be that the player gets the money, but it is counted against team payroll over the like of the contract? Like deferred salary in reverse?

Since most of these contracts are far above the highest marginal tax rate threshold the total would be the same paid now or over the life of the contract, unless tax rates change during that period. Much better to take it now than later.


Example

Quote:
It’s conceivable the activity on Greinke could increase at the winter meetings, but the D-backs owe him $172.5 million over the next five seasons, including $3 million installments of his signing bonus every May 31.

Yes, but is that just the way they structured his particular contract?

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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:31 pm 
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Ryan wrote:
Can Hazen DFA Steve Berthiaume?

(Yes, I know he can't, to be clear. :P )


Hey a guy can dream cant he? :lol:

Our guy Todd Walsh might be getting DFAed after making Deadspin today. :shock: :o


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 Post subject: Re: Mike Hazen is the new gm
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:06 pm 
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ReTired wrote:
Yes, but is that just the way they structured his particular contract?


Yeah. The way Kiley McDaniel tweeted the contract was very specific about Tomas's being upfront (which is common among players signing their first MLB or professional contract; Cuban players don't make a lot of money). McDaniel was all over the international free agency signings before he got hired by the Braves, so I tend to trust him on this matter.

Also, Rusney Castillo's signing bonus was paid up front: here

So, from what I'm reading, signing bonuses can vary in how they're paid out. So we're still kind of in the dark with how Tomas's bonus was paid out.

I'm hoping Tomas's was paid out in year 1, because that makes him a bit more tradeable.


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