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 Post subject: Some great players whose Defense subtracted from value
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:23 am 
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I happened to be playing around with something, and ran a PI report showing players whose WAR was only 90% or less than their oWAR but still achieved over 60 WAR.

oWAR is essentially WAR without the fielding runs included in the calculation, but it still includes a positional adjustment.

For most players 60 WAR is when you start talking about their HOF chances. Of course there are guys well under 60 in the HOF, and others well over 60 not in the HOF. This post isn't about mistakes or omissions though. It's specifically looking at guys that could really hit, and did so for a long time, but really sucked in the field.

So here is the list.









RkPlayerWAR/posOPS+RbatRfieldoWARPAHRRBIBBSOHBPGDPSBCSBAOBPSLGOPS
1Derek Jeter71.8115354.0-248.095.41260226013111082184017028735897.310.377.440.817
2Manny Ramirez69.2154653.0-129.081.297745551831132918131092433833.312.411.585.996
3Miguel Cabrera69.0152577.0-90.078.09479460161010631615602923821.317.395.554.949
4Craig Biggio65.2112258.0-100.074.912504291117511601753285150414124.281.363.433.796
5Willie McCovey64.4147490.0-78.071.69692521155513451550691762622.270.374.515.889
6Dave Winfield63.8130416.0-89.073.2123584651833121616862531922396.283.353.475.827
7Harmon Killebrew60.5143485.0-77.071.29833573158415591699482431918.256.376.509.884
8Gary Sheffield60.2140559.0-196.079.810947509167614751171135235253104.292.393.514.907



Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 9/2/2017.

OK, so the search Criteria was looking for guys with 10% less WAR than oWAR. But the play index does not allow you to rank them by the rate. So here they are ranked by biggest gap between WAR and oWAR on a percentage basis:

Be sure to use scroll bar at right to see bottom of table

Code:
Player             WAR   oWAR   WAR/oWAR
Derek Jeter        71.8   95.4   .75
Gary Sheffield     60.2   79.8   .75
Harmon Killebrew   60.5   71.2   .85
Manny Ramirez      69.2   81.2   .85
Craig Biggio       65.2   74.9   .87
Dave Winfield      63.8   73.2   .87
Miguel Cabrera     69     78    .88
Willie McCovey     64.4   71.6   .90


That is quite a "Tier" dropoff. Among HOF caliber players that hurt their value with their defense, nobody did that more than Jeter and Sheffield. Jeter is going in anyway. But Sheffield's historically bad defense cost him a spot in the HOF. His infamous tanking on groundballs at 3b while in Milwaukee to try to get himself traded cemented him as an attitude problem, and that attitude spilled into his efforts on defense for his entire career.

He was a great great hitter, with or without "the cream". Certainly a HOF worthy offensive talent, but his horror show on defense probably had a lot to do with why team's moved him around a lot.

Manny is somewhat similar in profile, but not as extreme as Sheffield. Biggio was pretty poor fielder through the second half of his career. Winfield was never considered a good outfielder, despite his athleticism and strong arm. "Stretch" McCovey was a poor defensive player too, but the most dominant slugger off the late 60's. MCCovey in a more offensive era in better hitters ballparks probably hits over 600 homers.

Anyway, I thought the extent to which Jeter and Sheffield hurt their value with their defense compared to other well known defensive liabilities was interesting. That's a HUGE gap between 1-2, and the rest of the field.

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trading young number one over all talent for back end of the rotation talent was fundamentally irresponsible. BFDD


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 Post subject: Re: Some great players whose Defense subtracted from value
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:33 am 
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As an addendum to the above post, HERE is a report doing the same search but lowering the total career WAR threshold to 50 WAR

4 players get added, Dick Allen, Willie Stargell, Toby Harrah :shock: and Jason Giambi

Dick Allen isn't in the HOF due to a host of reasons beyond his defensive liabilities, Stargell IS in the HOF, nobody ever thought of Toby Harrah as a HOF'er, although his career was much better than most fans realized, and Giambi, who was a poster boy for the Steroids era and while still a good offensive player with power and walks, was no where near the hitter he was in Oakland after he left and got off the juice.

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trading young number one over all talent for back end of the rotation talent was fundamentally irresponsible. BFDD


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 Post subject: Re: Some great players whose Defense subtracted from value
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:42 pm 
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shoewizard wrote:
f course there are guys well under 60 in the HOF, and others well over 60 not in the HOF.



Rabbit Maranville :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: / Joe Jackson

Great posts Shoe.

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